kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Nov 30, 2008 8:27:10 GMT -5
He has to. If his position is that he has nothing to do with it then he must distance himself from it in any way he can. Especially because of the crime because it is connected to it. Michael
You really believe that an innocent man under those incredibly intense circumstances would respond in such a way? Hauptmann's performance, and that's what it was, is in itself revealing. Can you imagine being in that position accuse before the world of such a heinous crime? Would a normal person be able to perform like he did?
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Post by Michael on Nov 30, 2008 9:51:59 GMT -5
My position is that it is hard to say if one cannot imagine themselves in such a situation. Most wouldn't so the "next" step doesn't make sense no matter what unless its a break down full of emotion. You also have to remember that Hauptmann had been in this type situation before, not to this magnitude but, he was in this "3rd degree" environment in the past. His answers and reactions here, in my opinion, don't indicate insanity. We also get a side of him, crying etc., from the Guards and Fisher, recounting his actions while there that we don't normally see from his robotic & emotionless persona we've come to associate him with.
There are varying degrees of crime. There are limits to what some people will do or won't do. Even many of the Police back then would engage in illegal activity. It's a culture of sorts. There are those more mentally "tough" or good "liars" in such spots that require it. (There are some used car salesmen who are real good off of Rt. 1 down by me). I am probably not doing a good job at explaining my perspective but perhaps if we continue to use examples we can probably get somewhere with this sooner or later.
Let me try this...
Recently I sat on a Jury Trial in which the charge was Murder 1 (Hard to believe I know). It was completely circumstantial, and we rendered a 'guilty' verdict. The woman who committed this murder had mental issues going on, however, she also was 100% aware that what she was doing was wrong and took rational steps to hide what she did. Therefore, she wasn't insane.
She continues to deny she did it - despite the fact she did. And there's no doubt in my mind she knows she did.
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Post by rmc1971 on Dec 14, 2008 18:07:41 GMT -5
I'm not sure what the point is. Obviously Kloppenberg believed he was innocent as well as Anna. Every interview, comment, and quote either says they had no idea or didn't believe it. Its my opinion Hauptmann had different circle of friends and socialized and responded differently to each one. This is probably no different in any criminal. That's an interesting point. People who claim that Fisch conned Hauptmann say Fisch was a master at compartmentalizing friends and keeping sets of friends unaware of one another. Perhaps Hauptmann had that talent as well.
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Post by Michael on Dec 15, 2008 7:32:43 GMT -5
I think this is a really good question. From everything I've seen, Hauptmann recorded most of his contacts in his memo books. But then again, you can see through the Police Reports various persons not recorded in those who Hauptmann associated with while watching the boards. Don't know if this counts or not, but I'd say they were "unknown" to others who knew Hauptmann and I am sure they weren't mentioned by him. Also, depending on exactly "who" he was talking to - Hauptmann did say alot.
I am still holding onto the theory that someone close to him was involved concerning Hautpmann's "angle." I also believe others were who Hauptmann may not have personally known or kept in contact with. There's a connecting point by which everyone came together but it may not have been through personal knowledge of each other prior thereto.
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Post by Michael on Feb 1, 2009 9:27:18 GMT -5
Interview with Lloyd Fisher, 2-20-36, to Leo Mead, Private Investigator & William Mustoe, Monmouth County Prosecutors Office: In reports submitted by agents of the Department of Justice there is described memorandum books taken from either the person, the residence or the safe deposit box of Hauptmann, but none such books were ever examined by the defense attorneys. Neither have they made an accurate tabulation of his gross profits or losses in his stock dealings. Further they do not know, and never have definitely determined what the true financial condition of Hauptmann's was as of March 1, 1932. Either or all of these items seem to be of the gravest importance if the testimony of State witnesses is to be successfully refuted. 1. How does one prepare a valid Defense for a trial if they don't have this information? 2. How does one prevent the execution if they don't have this information on 2-20?
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mairi
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Post by mairi on Feb 1, 2009 14:14:11 GMT -5
Whenever I read things of this sort--and there are SO many--my mind goes straight to Jones' book title, Murder of Justice In my view this holds true no matter what one believes to be Hauptmann's guilt.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Feb 1, 2009 16:34:26 GMT -5
Your both have a good point, but let's not forget the greatest impediment to a "fair" trial, the defendant.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Aug 7, 2012 12:05:23 GMT -5
What are some thoughts on why the $1830 of $10 gold notes found in the garage were wrapped in newspaper from Sept. and June of 1934. Was BRH moving and re-hiding the money?
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Aug 7, 2012 18:28:17 GMT -5
I tend to believe Hauptmann originally had the main stash, apart from immediate spending cash, hidden in the metal jar buried under the floor boards of his garage, hence the musty smell noted on some of the notes. Over time, he abandoned the buried approach for a number of accessible "deposit boxes" of increasing convenience, the primary one being the Erco shellac can with the newspaper dates you mentioned, the second the wrapped $10 bills (were those newspaper dates also the same?) and the third being the drilled out 2 X 4 with conveniently-available rolled bills. I don't know of any plans on Hauptmann's part to move locally unless you're thinking of the possibility of a "flight" back to Germany.
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Post by Michael on Aug 8, 2012 19:13:10 GMT -5
Here's what it means to me:
Any money wrapped in the Sept. 6 (Thursday) edition couldn't have been wrapped in that paper previous to that date. That the June 25th (Monday) couldn't have been wrapped in that edition previous to that date. They could have been wrapped on the same day which would mean he saved both of these papers. Since one was the Daily News, and the other the Daily Mirror, but that no other papers were found among his property - he either didn't read the Bronx Home News, any paper everyday, or threw them out when he was done reading them.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Aug 9, 2012 7:49:17 GMT -5
Michael, I think you would need more wrappings to make any judgment about Hauptmann's reading habits.
Joe, do you then think that Hauptmann originally kept all of the ransom in that buried crock? Did he just remove a portion as needed over the 2 1/2 years? I believe there was another can found empty in the garden. What has me curious is the amount of cash found above ground. If he had used the crock for several years I think he would have known whether or not it was a problem in regard to water. I'm just trying to understand his method here. He obviously felt very confident with the Garage location. Enough so, in fact, to lie to the police upon his arrest. But did he feel that way immediately after the ransom was paid? If he did feel so confident about it, why did he get rid of some of the kidnapping souvenirs? Or was there another location he used prior to the garage?
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Post by jdanniel on Aug 9, 2012 7:51:44 GMT -5
Michael,
I must confess I am having trouble understanding this. I'm not sure I can figure out why the money couldn't have been wrapped in earlier editions. Would you be willing to elaborate a bit further on the above statement? Jd
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Post by Michael on Aug 9, 2012 16:02:00 GMT -5
It's not a typical posting from me, but its the way I consider certain matters by restating the obvious in order to see it more clearly. What I am saying is that if this money was in a September 6th edition then it couldn't have been wrapped in that paper on the 5th or earlier.
I consider what can or cannot be true in order to rule things both in and out.
That's exactly right. So here we establish certain possibilities. We then add to or subtract from them as we examine other places where we may find additional information that applies.
We cannot expect to find all of the answers in just one place so, in my opinion, it must be approached in that way.
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Post by jdanniel on Aug 9, 2012 17:13:34 GMT -5
Okay, I understand now. I initially misread and misunderstood the statement.
But now I'm not sure I fully understand the significance of the date the money was wrapped. I'm going to have to think about this, as well. Jd
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Aug 10, 2012 9:47:06 GMT -5
- Why is he wrapping them in the first place?
- Why is he putting all of his pennies in one bank? ( a highly flammable one at that)
- Is there some significance to the various storage methods and amounts?
- Did he do this from the beginning?
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Aug 11, 2012 10:46:35 GMT -5
I think it comes down to available options. Assuming the Fisch story is exactly that, he had this huge amount of money from the time of the kidnapping, that he was unable to pass freely. So a bank or even safety deposit box would be out of the question. He couldn't keep it in the house because Anna would eventually find it, or perhaps she knew about it at some point and he was "protecting" her through plausible deniability. His car would be too risky and vulnerable. He needed ready access to the money and he would have had few fireproof location options at that time. Any alarm-call fire would be disastrous even if the money was buried under the floorboards, a scenario which he may have originally considered. The garage was definitely in his private day-to-day comfort zone and realistically, what other options did he have? I don't really attach any significance to the newspaper wrapping other than it would have been readily available, cheaper than kraft paper and I'm sure he would have relished looking at the money and even counting it regularly.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Aug 11, 2012 10:53:09 GMT -5
What I am trying to get at Joe is the method of Hauptmann's use of the money. I believe Rab showed the notes being spent in the order they were bundled, so I don't think he was playing with it. The crock buried under the floor would certainly be the safest location. Even in the event of a fire, it would be safe and I doubt anyone would discover it. But why pull the remainder out?
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Aug 11, 2012 11:44:38 GMT -5
Kevin, I was referring more to the artificial high he would have received from pulling the money of hiding and looking at it from time to time. There would be no reason for him to individually count bills as he knew what was in each stack as received.
I'm still not sure I understand your point about the crock. If you're wondering why he would have removed the money from that location, assuming he once had it there, I believe it was just too inconvenient, what with having to lift the garage floorboards and dig into the ground.
There was a few inches of water in that crock when it was discovered empty, which to me suggests there could have been groundwater or water runoff issues which he became aware of at some point after burying all or part of it there. I've even considered the Fisch story to be based upon a true story, and that certain pieces of factual information relating to how the ransom money may have gotten wet, were superimposed to another location, in this case the kitchen cupboard top shelf, which was far less suggestive of any criminal activity.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Aug 11, 2012 13:50:12 GMT -5
I'm just trying to see if the money as found reveals his spending intention of the same and whether this was consistent from the get go.
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Aug 11, 2012 14:07:00 GMT -5
I think any comparison of his previous spending and later spending habits is an apples and oranges comparison based on the fact every bill discovered in his garage was a highly visible gold certificate. Apparently that didn't stop him from passing them though and indicates to me he was just dealing with a much higher level of risk and desperation by that time.. a long time removed from his halcyon spending days of the summer of '32.
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