Joe
Lt. Colonel
Posts: 2,635
|
Post by Joe on Mar 27, 2006 9:53:24 GMT -5
Rick, I don't discount that the entire ransom negotiations could have been discreetly conducted, without the police or press having initially become involved.
In fact, I firmly believe this was the kidnappers' intent, to have Lindbergh deal with them in private and the baby returned safely for the ransom money, ie. a quick snatch and return. There is a consistent message within the nursery note and follow up notes which stress this desired path and subsequently chastise Lindbergh for having called the police in. By March 12 however, there is also a clear indication the baby had by that time died, through CJ's question to Condon about "burning if the baby was dead."
I also believe there's a very good chance the baby lived for a while following the night of March 1, enough for it to have been well removed from the Hopewell area, where it was later returned after the ransom payment. Given the mysterious hole behind the baby's left ear and that Liliput pistol and where it was found relative to the ransom money in Hauptmann's garage, might just indicate a connection to the crime, ie. the instrument of coup de grace for sustained mortal injuries.
In spite of all this and other hindsight, the fact remains, Lindbergh had no way of knowing what the content of the ransom note was, and his first reaction, aside from not touching the blank envelope, was to call the police. I see this clearly as stupidity on the part of the kidnappers, a failure to provide any reasonable direction for the agenda they stated within the envelope. If you're planning on stealing Charles Lindbergh's son, at least have the smarts to state your intentions clearly, without the least possibility of your plans being derailed by such a major oversight.
This is where things began to unravel and of course Lindbergh got in way over his head with the strange cast of characters that attached themselves to the case. But I don't blame him in the least for his intent, which above all, was to secure the safe release of his son. And he clearly demonstrated this right up until the time he was advised of the discovery of the body, while aboard the Cachalot.
Joe
|
|
|
Post by Michael on Mar 27, 2006 10:06:50 GMT -5
It was Lt. Hick's theory, before being hired by Mrs. McLean, the child may have been shot and he was looking at the possibility of it being the Liliput. I have the report on it. After being hired by Mrs. McLean - he was promptly loaned to Governor Hoffman for the purposes of the "re-investigation." Later, Lt. Hicks would get mixed up in HRO's claims being called to testify concerning the fingerprint issue. It should be noted that Hicks was originally brought into this case in the very early stages by Prosecutor Hauck.
|
|
Joe
Lt. Colonel
Posts: 2,635
|
Post by Joe on Mar 27, 2006 10:08:27 GMT -5
I do agree that Hauptmann was failed by a flawed justice process, but there are mitigating circumstances here as well. He would not admit one iota of complicity during this entire process in the face of multiple and independent streams of very damning evidence against him, so I think it's safe to infer a bit of a "karmic stalemate" here. You're absolutely right though that the prosecuting element desired that this case would die with Hauptmann, not realizing the myriad loose threads that in time, could not be contained.
Joe
|
|
|
Post by rick3 on Mar 27, 2006 14:02:54 GMT -5
I forget where the issue of the Ransom Money in the Garage is.....so Ill try here.
New York Times/ 22 Sept 1934.....Science used in Search; subtitled: Microscope showed that the ransom money had been buried by a Mechanic/
I knew there was some kind of musty smell or oil on the spent Ransom Money....jsut could not remember where Id seen that?
Dr. Alexander O. Gettler, chief toxicologist for the city was pouring over the found ransom money in his lab and Voila:
"I have found that most of this money has a musty smell, as though it has been long buried or sereted somewhere where the air could not reach it. I have also discovered that a reat many of the certificates have invisble bits of glycerine esters on thier surface" end quote
Thus it was concluded that it was a mechanic that ground his own tools....a machinist or carpenter or auto mechanic. The money passer was described as a "working man">
Then we hit on the idea of allerting gasoline filling stations. Stations were to ld to write the license plate number on the margin of the bill. Then came the break, we saw that we were getting closer and closer to the man we wanted. he was dropping the Certs fast and heavy in Yorkville and the Bronx--the same FOLDS, the same habit of drawing the money from either the watch pocket of the trousers or from the lower right VEST pocket.
Do working men wear vests?
|
|
|
Post by gary on Feb 1, 2007 10:49:35 GMT -5
One interesting note I picked up was the weekend after Hauptmann's conviction 2 $10 gold certificates surfaced from a purchased ticket from American Airlines on a flight from Boston to New York. Investigation was abandoned on orders from Schwarzkopf that these certificates must have been in circulation a very long time. Unfortunately in my view the fact two of them spent together on one occasion proves the opposite.
|
|
|
Post by Michael on Feb 5, 2007 10:21:53 GMT -5
Gary,
Thanks to your post I became motivated and whipped my "Ransom Money" files into shape. If you give me a little more detail on those notes above I should be able to retrieve some of the Police Reports on them and post what they found out.
|
|
mairi
Lieutenant
Posts: 548
|
Post by mairi on Feb 5, 2007 18:27:55 GMT -5
Other than the Mersman table does anyone know of a Summit, NJ link to the LKC? Also, somewhere I read that there was a newspaper found near the baby's graveside. Did it seem to have any significance to the case? A date or anything? Thanx
|
|
|
Post by Michael on Feb 6, 2007 6:35:05 GMT -5
I have the report about the newspaper found nearby the grave-site. I am running behind schedule so I'll try my best to scan and place it in the Members Section soon.
There are other investigations which take them to Summit for one reason or another. I've also payed close attention to Summit Street or Summit Avenue.
Rick - Thanks for that index. That is a big help!
|
|
|
Post by Michael on Feb 6, 2007 21:53:57 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by Michael on Feb 7, 2007 21:26:34 GMT -5
To provide an interesting little detail concerning your Summit question....
During the search for the depositor of the J.J. Faulkner $2980 (or $2990) ransom money, the investigation led to the Plymouth Apartments. The owner of the building, Payne L. Kretzner, lived in Englewood and had been a patient at Fair Oaks Sanatorium in Summit, NJ.
|
|
mairi
Lieutenant
Posts: 548
|
Post by mairi on Feb 7, 2007 22:06:02 GMT -5
Thanx alot, Michael~for the Summit information , as well as the addition to the Members section on the newspaper. Both are quite interesting.
|
|
|
Post by rick3 on Feb 8, 2007 12:37:19 GMT -5
there are at least a few interesting questions still hanging on the Gold certs: - We know for certain that BRH held $14,900 and change--so in an accurate accounting of the ransom (eg not the Persecution) how much ransom money is still missing?
- How many ransom notes were found "overseas"--for the Pres this means in foreign countries? I know Julia traced some to Japan.
- On top of the musty, wet, machinists oil on the ransom notes in BRHs garage--can we confirm that there was human blood on every six or 1/6th of the ransom notes? Sullivan claimed there was in his Inside Detective article and Arthur w. Jones nailed it as well in his deathbed revelations. So how did this get buried in the Trial?
disc.server.com/discussion.cgi?disc=141545;article=35537;title=The%20Lindbergh%20Kidnapping%20Hoax%20Forum;pagemark=40
|
|
|
Post by sue75 on Feb 8, 2007 17:34:22 GMT -5
Hi Rick,
I had posted this before, but some ransom bills were found in Reid's Grove, Maryland. I think this is southern Maryland on the peninsula. (Check out a road atlas.) This newspaper article (don't have the newspaper name handy) is from February 4, 1935.
RANSOM NOTES FIND WAY HERE
Part of Lindbergh Ransom Money Found Two Years Ago in Dorchester County Post Office
Julian B. Brinsfield, post master at Reid's Grove, Md., two years ago received fifteen dollars in bills which was identified as a part of the Lindbergh ransom money.
Mr. Brinsfield stated that he believed the money was picked up by truck drivers in either New York or New Jersey, and thence found its way to Maryland.
The money was turned over to the Government for tracing.
|
|
mairi
Lieutenant
Posts: 548
|
Post by mairi on Feb 8, 2007 17:51:44 GMT -5
Hi Rick~In something I read-sorry I can't recall which source-it was said some of the earlier ransom certs had traces of cosmetics. (Nosovitsky in cosmetics business)
|
|
|
Post by Michael on Feb 9, 2007 6:49:15 GMT -5
We have to remember there were separate Lab examinations that were performed. There is evidence that Lt. Finn was giving bills to be examined by Alexander O. Gettler, Chemist and Toxicologist of the NYC Health Office and Major Ellard, Chemistry Instructor NYC Police Dept.. One batch was definitely examined on 1-4-34. The substances found on those bills examined appear to be "animal and vegetable fats" and/or "glycerin esters of the saturated fatty acids." Another reference to a different examination was in June of '34. According to Finn the outstanding feature found on these bills were the "frequent presence of lipstick and mascara"... the individual breakdown also seems to show the fatty acids as well as inks, crayon, and brass particles. The most exhaustive report was done by the FBI Lab on $4690 of the recovered ransom notes on 8-7-34 conducted by Pickering and Murphy. As anyone who read Dr. Gardner's book, The Case That Never Dies, they know how angry and jealous this action made Schwarzkopf.... Here are some of the findings: Attention is called to the fact that these bills had been in circulation previous to their use as payment for the ransom, so it is quite possible that many of the markings, etc., were on the bills before being recirculated after the ransom was paid. It will be noted from an examination of the record sheets that blood stains were found on fifteen of the bills. There was considerable variation in the amount and the extent of these stains, some being hardly discernible to the naked eye and appearing as faint yellowish brown stains, while other were quite noticeably reddish brown and in one instance thin flakes of dried blood could easily be seen. No tests for human blood were made on these stains because of the fact that considerable amounts of perspiration and grease arising from handling during circulation were on the bills and would very likely give positive results and thus be misleading.
|
|
|
Post by Michael on Feb 10, 2007 11:19:40 GMT -5
Gary was right when he said that Schwarzkopf wanted investigation of ransom turning up after Hauptmann's arrest abandoned so its unclear the exact amount of bills which actually did surface. However, by May 16, 1938 there were officially $19,800 in ransom bills in the possession of the Authorities. That would include the money found in Hauptmann's garage and the infamous J.J. Faulkner exchange.
The funny thing is that on the very next day, May 17, 1938 it was reported to J. Edgar Hoover that a $10 ransom note had just been spent in Asheville, NC.
|
|
|
Post by Michael on Sept 16, 2007 12:12:17 GMT -5
Recieved from Western Union. N.Y.C 4-9-32 8.18 P.M. Col. C. A. Lindbergh.
The damage is done, that it can be repaired. Suggest you issue statement deploring publication serial number story and offering exchange, exposed bill for gold when rendezvous is kept for baby's return, which will reassure holders of bill in the event they are really the kidnappers.
George Clarke City Editor Daily Mirror ijpc.org/tabloid%20suite%20-%20sob%20sisters.htm
|
|
|
Post by stersource on Jul 25, 2011 3:33:08 GMT -5
How/where do I get the list of the serial numbers of the ransom notes
|
|
|
Post by Michael on Jul 25, 2011 7:51:17 GMT -5
S,
Here are your options:
1. I can scan a copy of the "Key Card" if you like. That is something Wilson came up with to make it easier for the Bank Tellers to find ransom. It list the ranges by which the numbers fall. I have the actual list but its too big & delicate for me to scan.
2. I have Walt Church's research where he lists the ransom serials in it. He had given me permission to hand this out to other Researchers (we just ask that if you use it you properly credit him). I would have to email that to you.
3. Contact Mark Falzini at the NJSP Archives to see if he might have a copy of the list digitized. If he does I know he will be happy to send it along to you. Contact Info:
Mark W. Falzini Archivist NJ State Police Museum 609-882-2000
4. It's always possible someone else here has it so I don't want to speak for anyone else but me.
Just let me/us know if there is anything else you need and I will do my best to help out.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2017 17:49:01 GMT -5
Michael, There was a $10 ransom bill--A74137326 discovered in the Guaranty Trust Company deposit of Oct. 22, 1932. This ransom bill came from a deposit made by The Adventurers Club after a dinner/event they had about October 20, 1932, at the Hotel Astor in New York City. This is a high-end club. A lot of famous, influential and important individuals were members of this group, including Col Norman Schwarzkopf and Gov. Hoffman. The FBI Summary report notes that this bill was tendered by someone who bought a ticket for this event that night. The summary report also notes that nothing further concerning this ransom bill was developed that would lead to who might have tendered this bill. It is hard to imagine Hauptmann attending a dinner like this and interacting with the type of people who would be present at this dinner. Have you seen the report on this bill? I am wondering if the authorities tried to obtain a list of the attendees that night so questions could be asked. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adventurers%27_Club_of_New_York
|
|
|
Post by Michael on Apr 28, 2017 20:51:20 GMT -5
There was a $10 ransom bill--A74137326 discovered in the Guaranty Trust Company deposit of Oct. 22, 1932. This ransom bill came from a deposit made by The Adventurers Club after a dinner/event they had about October 20, 1932, at the Hotel Astor in New York City. This is a high-end club. A lot of famous, influential and important individuals were members of this group, including Col Norman Schwarzkopf and Gov. Hoffman. The FBI Summary report notes that this bill was tendered by someone who bought a ticket for this event that night. The summary report also notes that nothing further concerning this ransom bill was developed that would lead to who might have tendered this bill. You've stumbled onto something very interesting. I haven't been able to find any report made on this bill. It could be I just didn't copy the report, however, even the various summaries (one written by Lt. Finn himself) do not mention this bill or it's investigation. That makes me think if it's been omitted there then perhaps a report wasn't made or a detailed investigation wasn't ever done. All I've found is what I've posted below, and this looks like the same information that is in the FBI Summary Report.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2017 11:21:29 GMT -5
Thanks, Michael for posting that page. It is basically the same thing the FBI Summary Report says. Considering the type of clientele who belonged to this club, I was more or less expecting that there might not be additional information available. I do appreciate that you took the time to look.
Going in a different direction, In Volume II, will you being discussing anything about Violet Sharp?
|
|
|
Post by Michael on Apr 30, 2017 8:48:55 GMT -5
Going in a different direction, In Volume II, will you being discussing anything about Violet Sharp? While she's not in my outline for this volume I hesitate to say I won't write about her. Every time I cover a certain subject information will come to me, that I hadn't thought of previously, which I know will complement/support/highlight the subject or point. I then pursue it and the next thing I know I have (3) pages written that I never envisioned writing. It's a product of having too much information, so I let it go where it leads me if or when I view it as new and/or interesting. On the other side of it, some of what is in my outline may never even make it due to the fact certain subjects are taking up more pages then I ever thought they would.
|
|
|
Post by kate1 on Apr 30, 2017 12:55:57 GMT -5
Can't wait for you to finish!
|
|
|
Post by mufti on Jan 27, 2018 21:27:26 GMT -5
If Lindbergh were a secret nazi he would not have advised France, England and USA to increase their air force sizes to match Germany's before the war. He was also one of the very few American officers to show any sympathy at all towards the Japanese who he felt were often mistreated so he can't be as heartless as many here make out.
There seems to be people here who think he was a nazi who set up his own child's kidnapping or murder because he was defective (without much evidence of this, we have videos of him walking and talking and acting normal), and then set up Hauptmann an innocent German to take the fall. Taken all together this whole scenario would have to be as illogical as it gets.
Back then if a child had a serious problem it would wind up out of sight with a lobotomy, and the press would not mention the boy again. So even if these suppositions were true there is just no motive to suffer all these outlandish risks, not to mention expenses.
|
|
|
Post by trojanusc on Jan 27, 2018 21:51:52 GMT -5
If Lindbergh were a secret nazi he would not have advised France, England and USA to increase their air force sizes to match Germany's before the war. He was also one of the very few American officers to show any sympathy at all towards the Japanese who he felt were often mistreated so he can't be as heartless as many here make out. There seems to be people here who think he was a nazi who set up his own child's kidnapping or murder because he was defective (without much evidence of this, we have videos of him walking and talking and acting normal), and then set up Hauptmann an innocent German to take the fall. Taken all together this whole scenario would have to be as illogical as it gets. Back then if a child had a serious problem it would wind up out of sight with a lobotomy, and the press would not mention the boy again. So even if these suppositions were true there is just no motive to suffer all these outlandish risks, not to mention expenses. There's no videos of him "walking" just trying to stand. The doctor, just prior to the kidnapping, said he couldn't even get the child to stand up. We know his skull was too large, it was defectively frail, his teeth were growing completely wrong and his toes overlapped. Sunlamps and a megadose of vitamins were prescribed. Even the whitewashed Doctor's report specified a "rickety condition." The child's organs were clearly surgically removed prior to discovery. Lindbergh was clearly a huge fan of eugenics, which deliberately wanted a "superior" gene pool and was exceptionally close with Alexis Carrell, an avowed eugenicist in his own right. All of this is in the historical record. Also, here's a secret, if Lindbergh gleefully accepted an award from the Nazis and bragged about it to his friends, he might not just be a "secret" Nazi.
|
|
|
Post by mufti on Feb 3, 2018 19:44:12 GMT -5
Rab's argument dissolves Hauptmann's claim that the money was soaking wet ("water running down my arms") and therefore had to be individually separated and dried out before hiding it in the garage. Doing so would have undoubtedly broken the bank-recorded sequence of serial numbers for the ransom payment and made it next to impossible to pass the notes from December 1933 to September 1934, in the original order. Wilentz could have slammed Hauptmann with this bit of logic and clearly showed he was lying here, had he connected on this. Obviously the original sequence was not greatly disturbed, therefore Hauptmann's testimony about the box having become water saturated in the kitchen closet is a fabrication, at least in that regard. If the money did indeed show signs of at least being in conditions of high humidity, then we need to look at an alternative explanation. I'm not certain about this condition as it applies to the December 1933 to August 1934-passed bills. Was this not observed for some of the ransom money passed prior to December 1933, specifically noted as the smell of having been buried in the ground? Hauptmann did not seem to have a satisfactory explanation for the crock dug up from beneath the garage floorboards. If he was telling the truth then the other money was gone long before he found the box.
|
|
geld
Trooper
Posts: 43
|
Post by geld on Feb 9, 2019 18:27:29 GMT -5
Here is an item of interest that I found on E-BAY, Item # 183663651519, a $10 gold certificate NAZI PROPAGANADA. Take a look. /Users/georgejumonville/Desktop/Screen Shot 2019-02-09 at 5.09.26 PM.png/Users/georgejumonville/Desktop/Screen Shot 2019-02-09 at 5.09.33 PM.png
|
|
|
Post by Michael on Feb 10, 2019 11:22:22 GMT -5
Here is an item of interest that I found on E-BAY, Item # 183663651519, a $10 gold certificate NAZI PROPAGANADA. Take a look. /Users/georgejumonville/Desktop/Screen Shot 2019-02-09 at 5.09.26 PM.png/Users/georgejumonville/Desktop/Screen Shot 2019-02-09 at 5.09.33 PM.png Very cool. I am going to take a wild guess and say you've been scanning online looking for Ransom Money?
|
|
geld
Trooper
Posts: 43
|
Post by geld on Feb 10, 2019 17:43:51 GMT -5
Yes,but what about this note?? What is the story?
|
|