Joe
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Post by Joe on Mar 12, 2006 19:42:20 GMT -5
I've uploaded some images from one of my recent hole punching exercises, through a dual thickness of linen writing paper. As I've previously posted, I believe the ransom note holes were formed by a very similar, if not this very process. I have found, among over two dozen different objects tried, the concaved head of a 2" finishing nail to most accurately reproduce in shape and quality, the original ransom note holes. The nail is impacted by the hammer in an inverted position. Kevin and I have had some recent e-mail conversations following his discovery of a Stanley nail set (not pictured here) in Hauptmann's tool inventory, so I've used a modern day version as a means of comparison. What is very important to this type of hole forming process is underlying support of a suitable material, in this case a piece of softwood. This positions and stabilizes the process and also receives the cut out paper chads from the high impact punch process. It's also interesting to note the difference in hole shape, a trait of the original ransom note holes, as seen in the holes created by the nail entering and exiting the linen writing paper. All of the holes were created with the same finishing nail or nail set. This is a very basic punching process seen in many material forming industries, but utilizing the same common principle. I invite comments and questions about the evaluation.
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Post by Rab on Mar 13, 2006 3:40:55 GMT -5
Joe, that's a very interesting illustration of your experiment. Some comments:
- the holes to me appear too uniform when compared with the ransom note holes, which are somewhat ragged and to me also vary in shape.
- I don't recall when looking at the ransom notes that there was any puckering such as can be seen on the underside of your examples. I wonder, though, if this is something that would have been lost through the passage of time with handling, storage etc.
- obviously with using a single nail it would be impossible to replicate the spacing of the ransom note holes which are not equally spaced yet are consistent throughout all the notes. Do you think that every note was punched at the same time? That seems to indicate that an awful lot of correspondence was anticipated from the very start.
Rab
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Mar 13, 2006 8:39:38 GMT -5
Joe, did you "condition" the nail set by breaking it in? Usually a well used nail set has a lot of distress and deformity at the tip as a result of all the contact made.
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Mar 13, 2006 13:50:12 GMT -5
Rab, yes, there are definite irregularities in both size and shape of the numerous ransom note holes. I'm not sure how one best accounts for this. Possible factors include hardness and shape of the cutting edge of the device used, the level of impact, the number of thicknesses of paper punched at once, distribution of the paper / linen content and the substrate underneath which absorbed the actual punching process.
I feel quite certain the holes were not formed by a standard paper punch or by placing the paper over a drilled template, such as the table brace. A standard punch is quite precise, even through a number of thicknesses of paper. The table brace placed under the paper, would only produce a torn, ragged hole at best, and excessive "puckering" that could then be pushed back into it's original position.
I also wonder about the degree of deformed paper around the edges of the holes and whether or not over time, they have been flattened back along the same plane as the paper itself. In some notes, it appears the cut paper chads were not completely removed, a clue that tells me this was one of a number of sheets punched simultaneously and the punch did not go cleanly through.
In my opinion, using a single nail (or punch) and a very simple cardboard template would be the easiest way to ensure the accuracy of the hole position, relative to each other and also to the bottom right hand corner of each punched note. With such a pre-drilled template lined up to the bottom right hand corner, you could actually punch each and every note separately, with high accuracy. The irregularities of the holes though tells me several sheets were probably stacked and punched together.
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Mar 13, 2006 13:51:19 GMT -5
Kevin, I used the 3/32" Stanley nail set "as purchased." If as you say, Hauptmann's nail set did not have the bevelling or easing coming up the shaft seen on modern day versions, or was flared out or deformed, it may well be worth evaluating. If you have a chance to look at it and do some evaluating, please let us know what you find.
All in all, I believe that a close 10X magnification of the original notes may well reveal some further clues as to what side of each page was punched and by what. I tend to believe the original Fifth Avenue linen paper was folded, perhaps two sheets at a time to yield four separate ransom notes and that the four thicknesses were punched simultaneously in a manner illustrated by the picture in my previous post.
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Post by Michael on Mar 13, 2006 19:42:43 GMT -5
Great job Joe.
I think these types of experiments will definitely bring us closer and closer to the truth of the matter. I echo the same comments as Rab does in his post. Keep this type of experimentation going...
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Post by rick member on Mar 18, 2006 7:21:22 GMT -5
While I was in Ewing NJ visiting my dad in hospice I had dinner with Julia in New Hope. She put forth a unique and challenging idea: the holes in the ransom notes were made by a 3-hole punch. I can readily support this idea. If, in point of fact, the holes are "precisely" spaced it would make sense. I picture the kind of punch with adjustable spaces between the punches. I can also see removable punches that can easily be switched from position 1 to position 3. Lets say, just for example, that the notes were created at the Temple of Divine Power, at 164 E. 127th, well, possibly the punch could have been intended for the Church Bullitin. Does this punch eliminate the Mersman Table as a template--not in the least. What it does eliminate is individually punched holes slammed with a hammer. Much too primitive. Its much more efficient to punch them all at once. My question is: Which one of the secret agent spy courses mentioned recently used holes to authenticate notes like this?
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Mar 18, 2006 8:14:06 GMT -5
Rick, you know better than anyone that those holes were not made with a 3 hole punch.
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Mar 18, 2006 10:39:35 GMT -5
Rick, would a three hole punch, or even a one hole standard paper punch not leave a cleanly defined hole of the shape it was designed to leave? We've all punched thousands upon thousands of holes with either of the above and know that the holes are anything but the irregular, ragged representations seen in the ransom notes.
Punching the paper with a hammer and punch object is not necessarily primitive, when the person doing the hole forming has ready access to the required tools and materials, as a carpenter would. But it is simple, very effective, makes common sense, and does leave holes very similar to those seen in the ransom notes.
Regarding the question of the Mersman table brace as the original template, consider:
How does one punch the ransom note holes using the table brace? By placing the paper over the brace and it's holes? How can you then punch through paper into thin air and achieve holes which have paper chads or "cutouts" removed, as seen in the ransom notes? At best you will end up with with torn, ragged holes, with puckered paper that be pushed back into its original position. It doesn't work.
Using the same method, how does one see where to punch if the paper is covering the holes in the table brace? You can't. Do you then shine a light underneath to show where the holes are and then "tear" the holes using the above method? How many hands do you need for this method? It doesn't work.
Failing the above, do you then place the table brace OVER the paper and then insert an object through each of the holes to punch them? How do you line up the table brace over the paper for the desired and very exact placement of holes demonstrated in the original notes, if you can't now see the paper you're covering? It doesn't work.
I don't unequivocally count out that someone had occasion to know about the original ransom note hole spacing, and recognized the similar pattern in the table brace. But I put little more consideration into believing this table brace was the template used to physically create the original ransom note holes.
Joe
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Post by rick3 on Mar 18, 2006 12:44:35 GMT -5
Joe...heres the best I can do: 1. If you are going to make precise holes then how can you ever check to see they are right? Answer--each party must have the same template--thus the Mersman Table. 2. I think it is possible to allign the 3 punches with the holes in the Mersman and then take the table board away. Then you can punch the 3 holes clean and nice all at one time. 2A. And two differing locations can make the exact same pattern time after time. 3. This hole thing is way too calculating and precise and all the holes allign perfectly in Wilburtha at the training center. Way too precise for nails and a hammer/ 4. Sure its overkill--but so is this entire LKC and all its shenanigans to get basically nowhere!
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Mar 18, 2006 16:56:29 GMT -5
Joe is better suited to to reply to your ideas Rick but I wonder when you say " Sure its overkill--but so is this entire LKC and all its shenanigans to get basically nowhere!" what you mean. The "singnature" and especially dem holes allowed Hauptmann or whoever you like to receive $50000 without ever having to provide proof of a live kidnap victim. I would say that makes them pretty successful.
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Post by rick on Mar 18, 2006 22:02:30 GMT -5
Kevin...I disagree/ noone ever tried to horne in on the holes or the signature. What got the $50K paid was a hoax negotiation between Jafsie and himself, or Jafsie and persons he knew. It was total dumbness on the part of CAL/BRK and JFC to accept a sleeping suite for absolutely nothing. Theon Wright put it best for me: there was never one scintilla of evidence that the Bronx Blackmailers ever had or even saw Charlie. Using Jafsie from the first instance had scam written all over it. Jafsie was the worst negotiator and worst failure in kidnapping history. Maybe CAl and jafsie are 100% responsible for Charlies demise for failure to follow even the simplest instruction for Charlies return--AND CLEVERLY WITHOLDING $20 THOUSAND IN RANSOM? Then, to put the blame elsewhere they team up to ID BRH instead after both said "WE CANNOT ID BRH BY SIGHT OR SOUND"? Why did Curtis and Means get arrested and Condon go free/ go figure? They are in cahoots or CAL is a poor judge of character and easily fooled.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Mar 19, 2006 9:30:22 GMT -5
"Jafsie was the worst negotiator and worst failure in kidnapping history. " (Rick)
Rick, aren't you arguing here against yourself? The fact is, and I think it is important to remember, that this "kidnapping"/ extortion was very successful. Had BRH's license plate number not been recorded on that bill there may never had been arrest made. When you consider that the entire negotiations and payoff were conducted and made without ever having a live victim to bargain with the success of the kidnappers/ extortionists is even more remarkable. The uniqueness of that "singnature" and the holes played a large part in that success no matter who was responsible.
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Mar 19, 2006 10:25:00 GMT -5
Rick, I'd appreciate your thoughts here.
When you suggest that each party must have the Mersman table brace as a template to ensure hole placement accuracy, what parties are you referring to?
Do you know for a fact that each Mersman table brace was drilled identically, so that the resultant holes were consistent in positioning from one piece to the next? Kel has already pointed out that the holes being irregularly spaced as they are, follows the practice of free-hand drilling for pieces that do not require precise symmetry.
Can you explain how you would use the table brace in conjunction with the paper you wanted to mark or punch? Do you place it over or under the paper? In each case, how do you see what you're doing?
I want to point out again there is nothing imprecise about using a hammer and nail (as a punch) to create reproducibly-spaced holes time after time, as long as you have an accurate guide to work with.
There are two points here and I think you're confusing them as one. My experiment was designed to try and reproduce the actual appearance of the ransom note holes and by doing so come up with the most likely method of creating them.
How they are exactly positioned, relative to the bottom right hand corner of each and every ransom note, depends on the use of an effective guide or template. I don't believe the Mersman table brace is an effective guide because its design and construction make it highly impractical, unwieldy and not just plain overkill, for what otherwise can be a relatively simple process.
Joe
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Post by rick member on Mar 19, 2006 12:46:31 GMT -5
Kevin--i dont think so? Working backwards: 1. The Bronx Blackmailers never did have Charlie or see Charlie. Condon/JFC had to talke them into going thru with the ransom payment after the rumor that Charlie was dead surfaced. Maybe Condon even gave CJ the sleeping suite to mail back. Where else would they have gotten it from? Duh? 2. If the singature makers, eg Bronx Blackmailers, did not have Charlie, then I guess they never kidnapped him either? Right? Condon was a known guantity to the Morrows and just went out phishing for a gang to fake the ransom payments. 3. Why....because during the interim/hiatus CAL was searching all over hell for Charlie using Rosner, Spitale, Bitz, Curtis, Means etc. Thus, CAL was on a search and destroy mission! 4. So I suppose, if you have been following, that the magic wonderful, time consuming SYMBOL meant absolutely no-thing? It wasnt even on the cemetary instructions? A work of art leading nowhere.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Mar 19, 2006 13:24:44 GMT -5
Rick,I think it would be better if you concentrated on one conspiracy at a time. It would definately help your position(s). Your theory must take into account facts. Fact; Nursery note has identical signature to ransom notes. Fact ; ladder found at scene of crime has a rail which came from the attic of one Richard Hauptmann ( by the way how are you doing with the test arrangements?) Fact: 30 % of the ransom money was found in the possesion of one Richard Hauptmann 2 yrs later.
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Post by rick3 the member on Mar 19, 2006 18:30:12 GMT -5
Kevin...I never said that BRH was totally innocent of all charges..those were your words not mine. Hes got about 1/3 of the ransom money so hes at least 1/3 guilty of that or being incredibly stupid? or trusting? The fact that just as soon as he passes a couple bills "in his own car!" he gets nabbed. But for over 2 years noone else is caught and Fisch heads out for Liepsig even paying his ticket with Gold Certs? While Rab is keeping tabs on all the stacks of ransom moneys passed out whos keeping tabs on Who is passing it? noone I presume. Now, did anyone match BRhs prints to the ladder or the ransom notes or the footprints? i dont think so? So far Im looking on Ebay for a 3D computer graphics program for my Dell PC/ [maybe these multiple conspiracies you allude to, three or more, is why even Shurlick J.Holmes could never figure it all out]
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Mar 19, 2006 19:15:21 GMT -5
Please Rick don't worry about expenses. money is no object.
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Post by Michael on Mar 22, 2006 6:18:56 GMT -5
I've got a ransom note where someone attempted to copy the signature and holes. These holes were somehow created "cleanly" just as those in the real ransom notes so there is a way to create them w/o the "dimpling affect" we see created in Joe's experiment.
Next, I think we have to say there is a nexus between the Bronx Extortioners and to whoever was involved at Highfields on 3-1-32.
The symbol does it for me.
There's always the possibility the symbol had been copied, especially under the circumstances - between the 1st and 2nd notes - but I think the odds are low. The irregular yet dead on consistency of those holes are hard to argue away as identifiers for the party it represents.
Of course the rumors of John's death and the group splitting up could all be true too and so I see a wide variety of variables to weigh and consider when we formulate our theories.
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Post by rick62 member on Mar 24, 2006 12:27:16 GMT -5
Its elementry My Dear Watson......my sense is that the Nursery Note was written and created over the telephone? Maybe dictated by the Mastermind (Moriarty). I think, at first, someone got carried away punching the 3-holes in a bunch of paper to test it out? Its the only way we can account for the matching holes and the 3-leafed clover punch moving positions? Since the first singnature is so crudely appointed, but yet close in color, Im quessing that someone told the author/authoress how it was "supposed" to look over the phone. I am assuming that the two inks were readily available in 5 and dimes? If it werent for latter notes (see Scaduto pages 160+) then we would be hard pressed to id the Vesica Pisces at all? By the same token, if it wern't for the latter ransom notes, we would be equally hardpressed to id the distinctive handwritiing of BRH! You cant hang a man on "IS"? Just like Rail 16 there seems to be a big hurry.
So in summary, for some reason the paper and the holes match? This could be the reproduciblilty of the elaborate coded system of forming the notes/ eg wasnt that the whole idea of a measured system in the first place? What does not match is the handwriting, eg Dear Sir, and the sloppy Vesica Pisces.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Mar 24, 2006 14:44:58 GMT -5
Rick have you been trying out Joe's recreational Ether theory? ;D
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Post by rick62 member on Mar 24, 2006 21:52:22 GMT -5
Well Kevey, I surely would like to take credit for the 2 author theory of the Ransom Notes--but alas and alack so many otheres have noticed it before me? Ellis, Hoffman, Bern, and many others like Lou Wedemar (Question 20)that I should really not take full credit for it. I quess that goes for the two crime theories (kidnapping vs. extortion); the two footprint theory mentioned today; the two ladder builders theory; the two lookouts in the Cemetarys; the two CJ theory to account for the many differeing and opposing ids of Condon (Fisch vs Gorch); the two car theory of Bush on Featherbed Lane? Jeez do you thinks BRH has a double twin? do you think there are two of everyding?
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Mar 25, 2006 7:37:16 GMT -5
Why only two? I can just picture it, a group of conspirators busily dis assembling their new Mersmans and punching contentedly away while communicating on a party line. Why aren't you in Hollywood?
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Post by rick62 member on Mar 25, 2006 12:29:39 GMT -5
Well, Kevey, do you really think that someone punching 3-holes "almost perfectly" would first think to use a hammer and punch set? Duh....I dont think so. Do you know anyone with a brain in any office that would do this? Duh.....I dont think so. Only if you want to say that only a carpenter made these holes and not any secretary. Considering all the possiblities, to make the most complicated ransom Note Symbol in history, why go crude....when you can go first class. Are you saying that there were no hole punches in 1932? I would think that if you wanted to buy INK today in Red and Violet you would go to Office Depot. How much you wanna bet they have "adjustible 3-hole punches" too. Coffee at Starbucks. By the way, heres the link to the tiny squiggles on either side of the signature as well: www.thirdreichcollectibles.com/item5.html
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Mar 25, 2006 14:44:12 GMT -5
No, I am saying that in your typical fashion you choose to ignore the reality of the evidence. Look at all the work Joe has done on the hole formation. Do you think he chose to use a hammer and nail as a whim? You have seen those notes and know the absurdity of a commercial hole punch as the instrument which made them. If you really cared so much about solutions you might have tried out your Mersman theory while you where at the museum.
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rick62 junior member
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Post by rick62 junior member on Mar 26, 2006 3:29:50 GMT -5
kevin, the only absurdity I know in this case is a limited perspective and a closed mind. "A mind is a terrible thing to waste" Even a rat in a maze only goes down the wrong path and bangs his head into the deadend a couple times before taking another more cheeseful path. Since you already know all the correct answers, why even have this board to regurge them all again? Why>simply because there are still 50+ question marks hanging out there in the LKC without adequate answers. To be quite candid I thought the hole punching idea rather clever and I wish Id have thought of it "even if its wrong"? I wish we knew why after all the hubbub about a 10-point signature, CAL decides to go forward with Means and Curtis? In this instance the backdoor Dr. Denton takes president over the Symbol? I would have paid for "Charlies hand print" myself! Mail it too me right next to the "3-hole Vesica Pisces" if you want--thats worth $50K for sure.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Mar 26, 2006 8:18:30 GMT -5
Ricky, once again you carefully sidestep answering any real questions in favor of theatrics, I know some find this entertaining but quite frankly I find it boring and far too predictable. Your cowardly and childish method of insulting and denigrating people and ideas are purely self serving. I really don't care to expend any further energy in such unproductive endeavors.
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Post by rick62 on Mar 26, 2006 9:33:06 GMT -5
Justs the Facts now Kevey/ I thought is was like mystical that right above this string is a Google Ad for Great Hole Punches for Quality Holes!! Its almost like Mary Jesus and Joseph on a Bagel! Sorry Kev but waht goes around comes around so just enjoy all those good vibes from the many and varied persons who have already voiced opposition to your posts and left the Board for greener and friendlier pastures. And for a more friendly and kinder board we cry out "Just the facts Maam!" just like Sergeant Friday. Its not surprising you are bored if you read all your own one-liner attack posts sans content/ Who let the dogs out? Woof/
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Mar 26, 2006 13:07:43 GMT -5
My own experiments with over two dozen different objects evaluated, tell me clearly the holes themselves were formed with some kind of crude punching device, with a solid substrate beneath, mainly as determined by their inconsistent shape from one ransom note to another. The paper chads themselves, with a few exceptions, are quite cleanly removed, which again confirms the punch process used. There are two main features of the ransom note holes: i) how they were physically punched and ii) how the holes were so accurately reproduced positionally, from note to note. I've previously demonstrated a simple and effective means (first post in this thread) of reproducing the general shape and quality of the actual ransom note holes. In terms of reproducing their placement from note to note, simplicity and effectiveness is key. Here's a very simple demonstration: There is nothing more complicated required here than a simple template, eg. a piece of stiff cardboard with three established holes for use as a guide, which can then be lined up against the sheet of writing paper exactly the same way each and every time. Once the hole positions were marked, the writer could then punch the holes using the method previously described. It's relatively straightforward to see how easily the hole positions could be reproduced quickly and effectively, even if just a couple of folded sheets of writing paper were punched at a time. Joe
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Post by Elyssa on Mar 26, 2006 14:14:22 GMT -5
Everyone needs to take a chill pill, then realize none of us will ever really know the truth about the kidnapping and death (?) of little Charlie. In order to solve this mystery and prove Hauptman innocent we have to know the true details of what happened that cold wet night. Let's face it, the only ones who really know 1st hand are dead and they took the truth with them. We can read every book and search every report, discuss every theory under the sun but we'll never get any closer to the truth, because the books and reports all start with details that were given to the police on that fateful night. We can enjoy talking things over and coming up with our own theories, but the only true facts of this case we can prove is that Hauptman was electrocuted for the kidnap and murder of the Lindbergh baby. Guilty or not he died... RIGHT.
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