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Post by Michael on May 9, 2006 19:42:20 GMT -5
Yes and no....
I keep thinking to Condon's assertion this symbol was the "sign of the mafia" and that he too associates the Cemetery Meetings with "Italian Custom" in his book - Jafsie Tells All. Next we see the Italian Woman at Tuckahoe and the phone call with the Italian "Shut Up" in the backround. I see one Italian reference after another...
This brings me to the WC's "diversion" comment and I can't help but wonder whether this gang may have included Italians or Condon is purposely trying to divert or mislead investigators towards the Italian mobs - something which I think Lindbergh originally assumed.
Then I do wonder why CJ chose the Cemeteries if not for the Custom then maybe for the diversion?
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Post by rick3 on May 9, 2006 21:32:02 GMT -5
Kevin and joe...no matter how hard I try i can see virtually nothing in the Kametz Team Flag that even vaguely resembles the symbol on the ransom notes. Sure theres the Budwieser beer sign but its got 3 rings; and the water is horizontal not VERTical/--we are looking specifically for 3 HOLES and 2 blue rings. AS usual, when you try to paste BRH into every nook and cranny of the this case, over and over and over again hoping upon hope for a link--you come up pumping a 75 year olde dry hole. No surprises there?
Michael, as for the Italian connection. We actually had a few Italians on the hook over at the Knickerbocker Pie Company and the occult temple of Divine Power in Mary and Peter the Seance Twins. These are all buddies of Isador Fisch--the central figure in the just-by-happenstance Occult Vesica Piscis. Its almost too good to be true--which means it might be a Red Fisch herring? CAn we actually count on Jafsies Tuckaho woman? Its not such a great idea to believe JFC--sometimes he says he goes to meet her at other times he blows it off. Condon is the master of smoke and deception.
Some of the time, especially in the Notes, we are blaming Nazi Germans who write the word BOAD? Normally they dont blame themselves. At other junctures, Condon is blaiming either the Scandanoovian sailors or the Italian Mafia? Its like a big International Daisy Chain which just goes round and round like a snake biting its own tail? Everyone is quick to blame everyone else. Whos the mastermind? Oh yes, BRH blaiming himself/
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on May 9, 2006 21:53:28 GMT -5
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Post by rick3 on May 9, 2006 22:06:47 GMT -5
The one in the John that connects the alarm to the refrigerator, of course.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on May 10, 2006 6:56:13 GMT -5
Rick, I am disappointed. I left you an opening to a clue that would no doubt would have fulfilled your dual penchant for conspiracy and entertainment and you completely missed it. Oh well,.... what is it Ayn Rand said about casting pearls?
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Post by rick3 trooper2 on May 10, 2006 9:17:32 GMT -5
Det. Sergeant FC Kevin...one thing I am never dissappointed in is your in-anal ablilty to "post my posts off the last 10 " and into oblivion in less than 2 hours"! "478" and counting! Good job--try saying something/anything? Big #s really count! Its always works good to ask a rhetorical
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on May 10, 2006 9:34:51 GMT -5
Thanks Rick! You know it's not easy. I would also like to compliment you on your record ( who's counting) of de-railing trains of discussion and mixing posts. Have some pity on us poor souls pumping dry wells and getting nothing for our efforts. By the way is it important to be in the last 10 posts? Now let's try to put an end to this wasteful bickering and get back to more constructive endeavors. This is a top board with top people and I don't feel we are doing it a service by exchanging barbs ( and yes I blame myself equally).
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Dec 14, 2008 8:44:27 GMT -5
What are some thoughts on the geometry of the symbol? What about the perpendicular line and the number of individual forms?
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Post by Michael on Dec 16, 2008 7:04:41 GMT -5
Keep going here Kevin...
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Dec 16, 2008 7:31:22 GMT -5
I'm not sure I can. It's just that I have been thinking about what Sigi found and I was staring at the cover of Mark's new book and it occurred to me that there might be a purpose or meaning in that form that has not been discussed. Perhaps because it is far simpler than we think?
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mairi
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Post by mairi on Dec 16, 2008 12:23:07 GMT -5
"Perhaps because it's far simpler than we thought" (Kevkon)
Has anyone ever seen vertical overlapping circles used as an architectural indicator of the sunrise?
I have a very old house drawing (possibly as far back as late 1700's) on which next to the house is shown vertical overlapping circles, which I think can only be a directional indicator of the rising sun. It has for a long time struck me as so like the circles of the "singnature".
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Dec 16, 2008 18:24:41 GMT -5
Mairi, without having seen your drawing I can't say much. But this is pretty much the type of practical example that I am getting at. I know there are some pretty elaborate and well thought out explanations for the symbol and some pretty smart people that have made them. I just don't think Hauptmann was one of them. I could be very wrong, but I just don't see him coming up with a geometric "singnature" that has all types of psychological or mystical meaning, at least not consciously anyhow. I somehow think that the symbol, or part of, had a much more practical purpose, one in which Hauptmann was well familiar. Who knows?
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mairi
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Post by mairi on Dec 16, 2008 18:48:28 GMT -5
Kevkon, I keep coming back to that impression, too. That the idea was to make the signature unique but not heavy on meaning. And that the holes would line up evenly in subsequent notes. Somehow I'm just guessing the perp had more to think about than symbolic, psychological messages with it. I know I could be wrong and the other interpretations are interesting to consider.
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Post by Michael on Dec 18, 2008 18:01:34 GMT -5
I am going to "play dumb" and ask for more detail concerning this position of "practical purpose." What do you mean Kevin?
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Dec 19, 2008 9:07:12 GMT -5
Well, I guess this "position" comes about because I still find the "singnature" to be troubling despite very good arguments to the contrary. I also, and I freely admit this to be a prejudice on my part, don't see Hauptmann as the type to create something like this out of the blue. The way I see it, the symbol is just not required. I have looked at many kidnappings and have yet to find something like this employed. Note also, the location of this "singnature" on the note. Is this where one would instinctively sign? Also the reference to it on the Nursery note, why would he find it necessary to point it out. It may seem a small thing, like it's location, but it seems to me that as true signature similar to a John Hancock which goes beyond just a personal mark and displays a flourish would only be done by someone with a great ego announcing himself. Would such a person then humbly point it out? What I am getting at is, is it possible that the symbol and holes were made previously and perhaps, independently of this crime? Is it possible that they were incorporated into the notes but had their origin in something unrelated? I don't know.
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Post by vovina on Dec 19, 2008 9:16:17 GMT -5
The signature symbol is a near match for one of Aleister Crowley's three circle abstraction of the " solar phallus " - including the " holes " - as found in one of the volumes of " The Equinox ". Unfortunately, I don't have the volume at hand to give an exact citation. So I'll be digging through my Crowley materials to see if the solar phallus symbol in this abstract form is mentioned in some other secondary sources. And it could just be a case of my seeing " Jesus In The Tortilla " ( LOL !).
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Dec 19, 2008 9:36:45 GMT -5
To my way of thinking and given my exposure to the inner workings of Richard Hauptmann, I get a very stong sense of a man desperate to be seen by others as powerful and great, first and foremost. This trait overshadows even his own level of greed, which I believe says a lot. He demonstrates this need, not in an overly outward way, but prefers to choose his moments carefully and with the same degree of planning that he used to engineer the symbol, one of the touchstones that kept him reminded of his greatest single achievement, planning and executing the Lindbergh Crime. And like the crime and his need for attention, he invites others to glimpse his inner self at precise moments when it will allow him to most fill up with the energy created by their reactions. He expresses favours and some gifts upon others not so much in friendship but moreso in a kind of misguided philanthropy to bolster his apparent favour. If those closest to him come too close however, and pry too deeply, he will shut them out without warning and a further word in order to protect himself, keeping that air of mystery and intrigue surrounding himself. In his own words to Fred Hahn and as related by Hahn to Assistant District Attorney Breslin, "If I am sure there is no evidence, they could never get anything out of me even if they kill me." Just like Hauptmann himself, there is much more to this drawing than a simple collection of shapes, lines and holes.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Dec 19, 2008 14:16:27 GMT -5
OK, but what do you think of my questions? If the symbol/signature is the result of Hauptmann's ego, why is it located on the bottom right? Why does the supreme ego find it necessary to point out his unique sign? Would it be missed? Why are the holes made first? How many of these notes did he think he would need to make? Why does a tradesman making his supreme mark use the bottle caps instead of making a die? Everyone seems to think he made one for the holes, why not the circles? I know I would have. I know these may seem like small details, but considering the importance of that first note and all it contains, I think it a worthy exercise. I really do believe that the entire crime is contained in that first note.
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Post by rmc1971 on Dec 19, 2008 17:47:55 GMT -5
To my way of thinking and given my exposure to the inner workings of Richard Hauptmann, I get a very stong sense of a man desperate to be seen by others as powerful and great, first and foremost. This trait overshadows even his own level of greed, which I believe says a lot. He demonstrates this need, not in an overly outward way, but prefers to choose his moments carefully and with the same degree of planning that he used to engineer the symbol, one of the touchstones that kept him reminded of his greatest single achievement, planning and executing the Lindbergh Crime. And like the crime and his need for attention, he invites others to glimpse his inner self at precise moments when it will allow him to most fill up with the energy created by their reactions. He expresses favours and some gifts upon others not so much in friendship but moreso in a kind of misguided philanthropy to bolster his apparent favour. If those closest to him come too close however, and pry too deeply, he will shut them out without warning and a further word in order to protect himself, keeping that air of mystery and intrigue surrounding himself. In his own words to Fred Hahn and as related by Hahn to Assistant District Attorney Breslin, "If I am sure there is no evidence, they could never get anything out of me even if they kill me." Just like Hauptmann himself, there is much more to this drawing than a simple collection of shapes, lines and holes. Joe - have you been able to determine if there is a meaning behind the symbol and some correlation to something in Hauptmann's day to day life? Something that would possibly allow him to have a trigger so he could relive the event?
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Post by Michael on Dec 20, 2008 9:51:07 GMT -5
Vovina - please do post more once you find it. I think its important to consider things before personally dismissing them. There's too much we do not know and this is something I never saw brought up before.
Kevin - I think I mentioned before that Rab made mention of a theory that's similar to yours. I hold both of your opinions on any subject in high regard so for the both of you to come to this independently shows it needs to be looked at closely. Your other points are duly noted and it could be because Hauptmann neither designed nor drew the symbol. The symbol itself isn't important - its those holes - and whoever wrote the note wants to make sure they are aware of it in order to prevent copy-cats from gumming up the works. Perhaps that's why when one considers the actual symbol they find it representing a symbolic "meaning" other then to identify the Perpetrators.
Joe - I don't know if I can say Hauptmann created the symbol or even designed it. He was working with others, and I still to this day believe at the very least the table was the template. Either by actual use or by spacing distance for the creation of those holes. There was a "hide-out" (so to speak), and that place was not Hauptmann's home. And so for me, if your theory is true, then it was a group of like-minded individuals...kind of like a "radical" group with a common belief. Additionally, was Hahn creditable? Does Hauptmann's personality match what he supposedly said? And if this were true, how does one explain what Agent Turrou would later claim Hauptmann asked him?
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Dec 20, 2008 12:06:37 GMT -5
Several important points regarding the "singnature"; - The location on the paper
- The holes made prior to the "symbols"
- The first ( and one would think the most important) note has the worst rendition.
- The unusual use of such a device for a kidnapping
- The holes line up, but the symbols don't
- The "singnature" is made prior to the writing
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Dec 21, 2008 8:29:41 GMT -5
I would agree, Kevin that this is not everyday Richard Hauptmann. But then neither is a planned crime of this significance. So if the symbol is not required, why does he use it in the nursery note and then continue to employ after all doubt of his intentions have been made abundantly clear?
In my opinion, he does so with the intention of providing to Lindbergh, a graphic reminder of his own level of courage, determination and creative genius as misguided as all of these are and which allowed him to pull off this entire scheme. Under what circumstances do you believe the symbol may have been employed then, if you feel it is really not required? Where is the point?
No, this is not where one would normally sign a lettter, but then it's not a normally written letter. The symbol has been placed first and foremost and the required writing made to adapt around it. Does this not say something about the symbol's fundamental importance in the mind of the writer? And it has been positioned there as a function and result of the writer's need to place the holes precisely. To that end, I believe there is significance to where they were placed, something very effective yet very easily achieved by means of a simple template, such as a piece of cardboard, lined up in the lower right hand corner.
Why does he feel the need to point out the symbol? Perhaps a weak attempt at being somewhat helpful, not realizing Lindbergh will probably be looking out for it anyway in a subsequnent note(s)? I don't know, but I'd say very strongly the writer's ego is front and centre here regardless of whatever other intent. Why else would he feel the need to repeat this elaborate symbol throughout the series of notes?
In what ways?
There's nothing that I've uncovered to reveal a direct relationship to something in Hauptmann's day to day life. I guess I'd have to call my own beliefs the sum of everything I understand or intuit about the man's inner workings based on what we know of the way he projected himself upon the world.
My own interpretation of the symbol is that fundamentally, it's a conscious expression of Hauptmann's desire to be perceived as an equal to Lindbergh. The two blue intersecting circles basically represent Hauptmann's and Lindbergh's lives which have now been forced together by the kidnapping, the child is the red circle in the middle now shared by both. And I believe there is significance in the spaces between the three holes and that these individual approximate distances in millimetres (27/23) may provide a connection to the years Lindbergh and Hauptmann crossed the Atlantic, the squiggly lines between these spaces representing the ocean each man endured. Just a personal theory though.
I believe there are two separate considerations here in the mind of the writer relative to the symbol's importance. Establishing authenticity through the holes and and an almost unconsciously ego-driven and an overtly graphic demonstration of his sense of superiority and portrayed symbolically.
I don't know of any proof, Michael that Hauptmann was working with others at the time the symbol was created. I believe there is strong evidence to suggest a lookout at both cemeteries and a possible accomplice at the scene of the crime. But I don't think it can be stated unequivocally that he was working with others all along. As for the table brace being used as a template, I cannot see my way clear of a grand hoax here for all the well established possible connections pertaining to Haring's Hand of Hauptmann.
I don't know for sure, but I would have to say knowing what you and Kelvin have established about Hauptmann's level of carpentry finishing skills and attention to detail, he might be somebody I'd hire to rough in a bathroom but not to renovate and finish my living room. I'd probably be more surprised if he spent some out-of-character level of neatness in the final presentation of that symbol.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Dec 21, 2008 12:26:04 GMT -5
Joe, would not these notes have the "singnature" applied prior ? Wouldn't Hauptmann make them up all at one time or at least several?
When I say that the entire crime is contained in that first not e I mean that it contains the evidence of premeditation ( or not) and the intent of the criminal. Look, for example, at the signature since we are talking about that. If Hauptmann decided that he needed to employ such a unique identifier it might show that he expected word to get out despite his warning to the contrary. The declaration that further instructions will follow in several days may reveal whether the child was intended to be taken and held alive or whether murder was the plan from the outset. The "Dear Sir" is extremely interesting, especially the location of Sir. Was Hauptmann afraid to write Lindbergh? Was he unsure of who he was addressing the letter to? Was the "Sir" added later? In short, the Nursery note contains many clues despite it's brevity which reveal the mind of it's writer and his intentions.
As for the location of the "singnature", it's odd to be located on the bottom right, especially for a right handed person.
Here's my suspicion regarding the signature, I think the holes may pre-date the use of the paper for the ransom notes and were incorporated by Hauptmann as his sign. I think it possible that the symbol was added and embellished perhaps to make the holes seem integral and purposefully done.
As for Hauptmann's skill ( or lack of), I think he was capable of good work but like many people he tended to take shortcuts when it suited him.
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Post by vovina on Dec 22, 2008 8:44:55 GMT -5
When was the last time, previous to the kidnapping, that Evalyn McLean visited the Lindberghs ? According to Anthony in " Florence Harding " ( pgs. 135, 228, 253, and 541-42 ) McLean was very careless with the Hope Diamond and the Star of the East green emerald - relying on the alleged Hope Diamond curse as protection. It would be consistent with Anthony's citations for McLean to store these, and other gems, in the Lindbergh nursery. This might account for the oddity of the kidnap note noticed by Kevin - Hauptmann in this hypotheses is after the gems, can't find them, takes Charlie instead, and thus has to improvise a " new " ransom note. If the " signature " is in fact Crowley's " solar phallus " ( and I am still tracking that down ), the connection between " signature " and the real theft target would be apparent: the Hope Diamond was used by the 18th Century black magician Caglistro to discredit Marie Antoinette before the French Revolution, as such the gem was coveted by those involved in occult practices. I agree with Kevin that the solution to the kidnapping rests with the decoding of the nursery note whether or not my hypothesis stands the test of facts !
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Post by vovina on Dec 22, 2008 10:38:32 GMT -5
Eureka ! While I still haven't located the exact symbol from the Equinox, I did find a " solar phallus " ( with three circles and one hole ) on pg. 789 of " The Confessions Of Aleister Crowley " edited by Symonds and Grant 1979. Methinks the game is afoot ( LOL ! )!
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mairi
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Post by mairi on Dec 22, 2008 20:14:06 GMT -5
Well done, Vovina!! I found a little something (the address of which I cannot reconstruct). However- try googling up www.learnnc.org-then see if you can locate "Families-Then And Now Venn Diagram" (diagram 1, I think) The two overlapping circles and the overlap have captions. While awaiting my order of Mark's new book from Amazon, today I rec'd a surprise copy from my daughter! ;D She had ordered it from the UK! Wow! Mark gets around! Now with two copies I can read both coming and going
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Dec 23, 2008 8:09:09 GMT -5
Kevin, some very good points in your post. I've added some more thoughts here:
If the symbol artwork was applied to each note before the writing, then the writer did not always make an attempt to keep the two from running into each other throughout the series of notes. He seems to have done that in the nursery note though, but then many of the front sides of subsequent notes contain far more missive than the nursery note. Whether or not the symbol was applied before of after, (has this ever been determined by ink deposit layering analysis?) there is no question it carries a significant level of importance in the mind of the writier, beyond the precision factor of the three holes themselves.
As for the specific location of the holes, I don't think there would have been concerns from a recipient of the next letter over authenticity of any subsequent notes if it came without the artwork. Whether the writer actually believed that though I think is difficult to answer.
I would agree entirely but really cannot imagine this not being the case. And I maintain that the nursery note says everything it needs to for the time being, until the writer assesses the siutational impact of the child being stolen and then decides how to make further contact.
The "Dear Sir" salutation is a generic formal German business opening but yes, I believe there is a deep-seated anxiety on the part of the writer in addressing Charles Lindbergh personally here. And that much of that has to do with Hauptmann's position in life relative to Lindbergh's. Here I've always kind of envisioned Hauptmann much like the small time tough on the street aspiring to knock off the local boss and rule the neighbourhood, yet still insecure enough about the process to address him consistently on the same level. For now, he is more comfortable taking his time with an elaborate and highly visual piece of artwork, constructed at his own pace, to ultimately demonstrate his strong inner sense of equality and even superiority.
I would agree from a traditional sense in writing, but I guess I've always seen the "singnature" not so much an actual person's signature, but as a pictorial expression of plan or thought, the real clue behind the writer's intent in this crime. To that end and in my opinion, it's location is important only to serve the need to align with the holes that were punched precisely for absolute authenticity. Despite the general sloppiness and smudging of the disguised writing, there is a strong element of visual balance in the nursery note relative to the "Dear Sir" in the upper left and the symbol in the lower right hand.
I'm not sure I understand. We know a larger sheet of linen paper was torn in two as the basis for each individual note. Are you saying the holes would have originally appeared at both ends of the originally-larger sheet of writing paper?
Here, I see the process as: 1. Large sheet of writing paper folded and torn in two, 2. Holes punched in multi-layer fashion either through the folded or torn sheets, 3. Symbol added probably prior to writing the nursery note and then added more indiscriminately for the originally-unplanned but subsequent lengthy series of notes.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Dec 23, 2008 17:13:16 GMT -5
No, all I am saying is that I believe the holes predate the symbol and the incorporation into the crime. I believe Hauptmann did what he does best, what he always does, he adapts that what he has for that which he needs.
Why would you think he would believe more than a few notes would suffice?
PS
MERRY CHRISTMAS!
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Dec 23, 2008 19:01:36 GMT -5
Kevin, I think it's reasonable in a working theory that the idea of using the holes comes from some other application, such as a military operation. It's quick, easy and accurate and Hauptmann had military experience. As to the actual and precise spacing between the holes, therein I believe lies the other side of the story. Are you thinking of another possible pre-application of the holes?
I don't believe Hauptmann originally planned on using more than two or three ransom notes for this crime, period. He wanted the money ransom for exchange of the child (dead or alive) within the 2-4 days stipulated in the nursery note. The unexpected involvement of the police, press and most of the civilized world cast a whole new light on his thought process and the ever-adaptable Hauptmann rose to the occasion.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Dec 24, 2008 11:21:53 GMT -5
Joe, do you really think Hauptmann would have bothered with some sort of "template" for the holes if he only intended to make a couple of notes?
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