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Post by leeforman2 on Jul 22, 2019 20:32:51 GMT -5
Hi all - probably common knowledge - but I wasn't aware of it. In doing some searches on Isidor Fisch, I came up with a reference with Fisch as a witness, and an address and title - turns out it is another Isidor Fisch - not Isidor 'SRUL' Fisch.
I was somewhat excited to trace back the information on the form ' Salesman' at - 226 West 14th Street - to the sales office for the Consolidated Card Company of NYC - and then see this design on a playing card in 1929. Still interesting on the timing of the design - but a different fisch altogether. : (
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Jul 22, 2019 22:57:15 GMT -5
VG information, Fisch was in some ways an enigma. He went back to Germany at a time when the NAZIs were kicking Jews out. Oh well, I guess some things we'll never understand.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2019 5:42:05 GMT -5
I was somewhat excited to trace back the information on the form ' Salesman' at - 226 West 14th Street - to the sales office for the Consolidated Card Company of NYC - and then see this design on a playing card in 1929. Nice research! Hauptmann was a card player for sure. That he could have played with such a deck of cards is certainly a possibility. What a simple inspiration this would have provided for the ransom note symbol! And fitting, since he did like to gamble!
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Post by hurtelable on Jul 23, 2019 8:21:28 GMT -5
(1) Where on earth did you find an naturalization card for the heretofore unknown Emanuel Fuchs?
(2) What are you referring to when you write "not Isidor 'SRUL' Fisch"? In particular what does 'SRUL' mean?
(3) Comment: I've seen the given name of the Fissh associated with Hauptmann spelled either "Isidor" or "Isador" by different writers.
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Post by Michael on Jul 23, 2019 8:47:29 GMT -5
VG information, Fisch was in some ways an enigma. He went back to Germany at a time when the NAZIs were kicking Jews out. Oh well, I guess some things we'll never understand. Fisch’s trip, Hauptmann explained, was motivated by the fact he “wanted to return to his brother in Germany at Christmas time, because he wanted to make an arrangement for importing and exporting furs.” (TDC page 578) Although this is coming from Hauptmann, there is no doubt in my mind he believed it. Fisch's tickets were round-trip, and he left his belongings with Hauptmann because he intended to return. Plus, it makes sense if you think about it. The wild card was that Fisch was hustling Hauptmann when it came to anything to do with furs, but this strikes me as being believable.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2019 9:41:34 GMT -5
Fisch’s trip, Hauptmann explained, was motivated by the fact he “wanted to return to his brother in Germany at Christmas time, because he wanted to make an arrangement for importing and exporting furs.” (TDC page 578) Although this is coming from Hauptmann, there is no doubt in my mind he believed it. Fisch's tickets were round-trip, and he left his belongings with Hauptmann because he intended to return. Plus, it makes sense if you think about it. The wild card was that Fisch was hustling Hauptmann when it came to anything to do with furs, but this strikes me as being believable. This reason is very believable. I can see Fisch telling Hauptmann this because of their fur partnership. I also am of the opinion, however, that Fisch was not completely honest with BRH about how sick he really was. I believe Fisch also went to Germany to seek medical treatment. In my research of Fisch at the archives (so far), Fisch expresses in his letters to people about seeking treatment for his condition and expressing dissatisfaction with the treatment he received from American doctors. He was being treated and hoping to get well and then to return to America. Fisch wrote in his letter from Germany to Max Falak, in America, that when he gets home (to America) he won't cough anymore. As we know, Fisch never made it back to America.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2019 9:47:59 GMT -5
(2) What are you referring to when you write "not Isidor 'SRUL' Fisch"? In particular what does 'SRUL' mean? (3) Comment: I've seen the given name of the Fissh associated with Hauptmann spelled either "Isidor" or "Isador" by different writers. Srul was Isidor's middle man. I believe it means "Israel". Here is a link to the picture of Fisch's headstone at his gravesite in Germany. This picture comes from Ronelle's Hoax board. I believe the photograph was taken by researcher, Siglinde Rach, when she made a visit to Germany. www.lindberghkidnappinghoax.com/fisch.html
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Post by hurtelable on Jul 23, 2019 19:18:02 GMT -5
(2) What are you referring to when you write "not Isidor 'SRUL' Fisch"? In particular what does 'SRUL' mean? (3) Comment: I've seen the given name of the Fissh associated with Hauptmann spelled either "Isidor" or "Isador" by different writers. Srul was Isidor's middle man. I believe it means "Israel". Here is a link to the picture of Fisch's headstone at his gravesite in Germany. This picture comes from Ronelle's Hoax board. I believe the photograph was taken by researcher, Siglinde Rach, when she made a visit to Germany. www.lindberghkidnappinghoax.com/fisch.htmlAbsolutely astonishing that Fish's gravestone was in such splendid condition in 2001, when you consider that it was presumably made shortly after his death in 1934, so the Nazis would have had 11 years to desecrate it, something they did routinely to Jewish cemeteries and gravestones. Then again, perhaps they did desecrate the original Fisch gravestone and it was restored by surviving family after WWII.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2019 19:39:19 GMT -5
Absolutely astonishing that Fish's gravestone was in such splendid condition in 2001, when you consider that it was presumably made shortly after his death in 1934, so the Nazis would have had 11 years to desecrate it, something they did routinely to Jewish cemeteries and gravestones. Then again, perhaps they did desecrate the original Fisch gravestone and it was restored by surviving family after WWII. About the surviving family possibly restoring Fisch's gravestone, I think you will be interested in reading this excellent piece of research done by Mark Falzini, archivist at the NJSP museum concerning the Fisch family. njspmuseum.blogspot.com/2016/
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Jul 24, 2019 3:16:38 GMT -5
I've seen that the Nazis would do special stuff for people, mostly Jews, and the special was deport them out when their number wasn't up yet. As I recall though, it always required a large amount of cash to the NSDAP. Do we rather, is there any correspondence between Pinkus and Isador pre his going to Germany where Pinkus might say that he needs lots of capital? Also, Amy, I believe Saul means king.
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Post by hurtelable on Jul 24, 2019 9:58:01 GMT -5
Absolutely astonishing that Fish's gravestone was in such splendid condition in 2001, when you consider that it was presumably made shortly after his death in 1934, so the Nazis would have had 11 years to desecrate it, something they did routinely to Jewish cemeteries and gravestones. Then again, perhaps they did desecrate the original Fisch gravestone and it was restored by surviving family after WWII. About the surviving family possibly restoring Fisch's gravestone, I think you will be interested in reading this excellent piece of research done by Mark Falzini, archivist at the NJSP museum concerning the Fisch family. njspmuseum.blogspot.com/2016/Much thanks, amy35, for posting Mark Falzini's article about the Fisch family and the Holocaust. Sad that apparently all of the immediate family were killed. That reinforces the point I made earlier: it is astonishing that Isidor's gravestone was in such excellent condition in 2001. There must be some explanation for that. In retrospect, the Fisch family made a fatal mistake that about 150,000 German Jews made: they did not take advantage of a brief window of opportunity in the first few years of the Nazi regime to emigrate out of Germany, when they probably had the financial resources to bribe their way out if necessary. Perhaps they could not of contemplated that their countrymen in Germany would engage in a massive genocide.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2019 13:17:08 GMT -5
Also, Amy, I believe Saul means king. FYI Jack: Meaning of Saul: www.behindthename.com/name/saulFisch's middle name was Srul. Here is the meaning: www.behindthename.com/name/srul/submittedI am especially interested in the financial picture of the Fisch family in Germany. Especially the year 1932. I am in the process of reviewing what Fisch letters are at the archives. I have one letter written by Isidor (Nov. 1933) to his family in Germany but it is in German. I am hoping to come across a translated copy at the archives.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2019 13:25:12 GMT -5
That reinforces the point I made earlier: it is astonishing that Isidor's gravestone was in such excellent condition in 2001. There must be some explanation for that. It is a very impressive headstone. If there is a story behind it, I am not aware of it. Perhaps there is a more knowledgeable researcher that knows details about Fisch's gravestone. I shall have to look and see if there is anything about it at the archives.
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Post by ziki on Jul 24, 2019 14:44:26 GMT -5
That reinforces the point I made earlier: it is astonishing that Isidor's gravestone was in such excellent condition in 2001. There must be some explanation for that. It is a very impressive headstone. If there is a story behind it, I am not aware of it. Perhaps there is a more knowledgeable researcher that knows details about Fisch's gravestone. I shall have to look and see if there is anything about it at the archives. This is a site about the cemetery (in German), where Fisch's gravestone is: www.alemannia-judaica.de/leipzig_friedhof_neu.htmand here a German Wikipedia about Jewish Cemeteries in Leipzig: de.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%BCdische_Friedh%C3%B6fe_in_LeipzigNot every Jewish gravestone or cemetery was destroyed or desecrated by nazis. Some of this cemeteries was also the only places, where Jews which still were not transported to concentration camps could take a walk or children play, because they were not allowed to visit public parks and so on (it was terrible time then). I am now too short of time to read this sites word by word, but after a short look it seems, the cemetery with Fisch’s gravestone was renewed after World War II. Maybe this story is an encouragement to visit Leipzig (it’s not so far away for me).
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Post by jack7 on Jul 24, 2019 17:54:08 GMT -5
Well I always wished that my name was Saul, and I still have friends named Saul, and used to have an Uncle Saul. I took the name to be adopted by the first King of Israel because it meant anointed one, which in a way was his thinking that the name for him was king. Saul could have kicked butt in that battle, but I think his people let him down because they were afraid. My opinion only, of course.
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Post by leeforman2 on Jul 25, 2019 9:55:30 GMT -5
Hi all - so great to be here btw - I enjoy all the comments and learn as much as I can.
I had some additional info on the 'other' Isidor Fisch, which of course, I didn't bother to save - and now I can't find it again - it may have been a US Census doc - anyway - this Isidor Fisch appears to have been born in NYC - and I think resided in Brooklyn - much earlier that Isidor Srul - it looks like he was a salesman - already established - acted as witness for Citizen Naturalization on at least 3 occasions, has 2 records which appear to be business address, a record of a 'conveyance' of real estate, a record of payment for translation, and two works - one called 'Echoes' which is a collection of Poetry. I assume that the Poetry is actually an English translation of the Yiddish - not an original work - that's an assumption based upon the titles of the works.
Echoes Fisch, Isidor
N.P. N.P., 1946. 8vo. 126 pp. White wrapping with blue writing on front cover. A book of Poetry including but not limited to: "The Wandering Jew", "Kiddush", "Kol Nidre", "The Magician", "The Reformer's Gift", "The Divorce", "The Kaiser's Cigar" and "The Rabbi's Reply"
Everyone knows this detail - just pointing out that the other Isidor Fisch acted as witness three times in 1905 - Srul was born that year, and in Germant - (26 July 1905 – 29 March 1934) Fisch was born into a Jewish family in Leipzig, Germany, and emigrated to America in 1925. Upon his arrival, he went to live with the family of Herman Kirsten, his former boss back in Germany, and continued to work in the fur trade as a cutter. He lived in rented rooms together with fellow German immigrants Karl Henkel, Gerta Henkel and Henry Uhlig.
The salesman / translator / Author Isidor published the poems in 1946, and Srul was already deceased in 1934.
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