luf12
Trooper II
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Post by luf12 on Jul 11, 2019 18:36:54 GMT -5
I want the list of the individuals that attend the hunting trips with Bruno
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Post by Michael on Jul 14, 2019 7:44:22 GMT -5
I want the list of the individuals that attend the hunting trips with Bruno 1. The Bingham, Maine hunting trip consisted of Hauptmann and Henkel. Roland Baker recommended Earl Lister to the men to act as a guide. Earl brought his brother John Lister who also brought a friend named Harold Carlquist along with him. Along the way the men picked up another friend of the Listers named Leo Miller. 2. The Garfield, New Jersey hunting trip consisted of Hauptmann and Henkel. Henkel had previously planned to hunt with John Chizacky then asked him if it was alright to bring Hauptmann along. Police were initially interested in Chizacky because his first name was John, he lived in NJ, and he also knew Fisch.
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Post by Michael on Jul 17, 2019 9:09:10 GMT -5
Here is a great picture from the Maine trip. I found it at the Archives and I do not think very many people have seen this one before... imgur.com/6vPc3G7
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Post by hurtelable on Jul 17, 2019 19:13:26 GMT -5
Michael, Just a few basic questions about the Maine hunting trip:
(1) When did the trip occur?
(2) Was the photo that you posted above found in the Hauptmann apartment shortly after his arrest?
(3) Was the hunting trip mentioned at all in "The Dark Corners"?
(4) Were any of the other men on the trip questioned by law enforcement in connection to the LKC?
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Post by Michael on Jul 18, 2019 8:22:09 GMT -5
(1) When did the trip occur? (2) Was the photo that you posted above found in the Hauptmann apartment shortly after his arrest? (3) Was the hunting trip mentioned at all in "The Dark Corners"? (4) Were any of the other men on the trip questioned by law enforcement in connection to the LKC? All great questions that I will have to research to make sure I don't overlook something or make a mistake. I am in the middle of finishing up the last chapter in V3 so please bear with me. I don't know if its a sign or age or what but more and more its hard for me to jump from one subject to another because it sends my head spinning. For Question #2 the answer is " I don't know." It could have been from one of many different sources with Hauptmann's apartment being one. I've found so many pictures over the years. Some are in the picture binders. Some are attached to specific reports/investigations. Some in the Hoffman Boxes. And others scattered throughout the various boxes of material in various collections or stored in the closet. Cops sometimes came into possession of photos because they were first published in the newspapers. This would happen because if someone had something they would sell it to the press almost immediately. It's even how certain investigations got started, and if it didn't occur police wouldn't even know who these people were. Anyway, it's easy to find something then look at the inventories and assume the photo is the one listed there, however, there are sometimes many similar photos at the Archives but only one on the list. Know what I mean? So a researcher might think they have the one on the list but if there are - say five - different ones who knows "which is which" unless its on the back or a report is attached? Not me. This is something other Authors have done in the past so we all have to be aware of the possibilities. For Question #3 the answer is "no." However, on page 424 in V2 there is a little something but its not what you are looking for. This subject came up because of Luf's question about it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2019 13:21:07 GMT -5
According to this newspaper article, John Lister, who was Hauptmann's guide on the hunting trip that took place in Maine in November 1932, was being sought for questioning. This article reports that Lister was on a trip around the world and was unavailable. This article was in the newspapers in December, 1934.
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Post by hurtelable on Jul 18, 2019 16:59:57 GMT -5
According to this newspaper article, John Lister, who was Hauptmann's guide on the hunting trip that took place in Maine in November 1932, was being sought for questioning. This article reports that Lister was on a trip around the world and was unavailable. This article was in the newspapers in December, 1934. Looks like we have a new suspect in the Lindbergh case, at least the extortion part of it, here. Surely this description of a blue collar worker with a lot of money to throw around during the Depression, and with ties to Hauptmann, conveniently taking a world tour shortly after Hauptmann's arrest, raises eyebrows. Would anyone know if Lister was of German background and/or spoke German?
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kdwv8
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Posts: 95
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Post by kdwv8 on Jul 18, 2019 21:17:09 GMT -5
Seems a little strange how many of these people went to Europe or around the world. Wasn't the Great Depression going on?
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Post by Michael on Jul 20, 2019 9:04:44 GMT -5
(1) When did the trip occur? (4) Were any of the other men on the trip questioned by law enforcement in connection to the LKC? For Question #1: Both Mrs. Earl Lister and Roland Baker said they arrived on November 6, 1932. For Question #2: Yes. Earl Lister. They also interviewed several others including John's ex-wife Dorothy. She told police she did not know where John was but believed he might be found " in the vicinity of Port Chester, N.Y.". She claimed that John never knew Hauptmann but met Henkel at on the Hoff Estate in Southbury, Conn. where Augusta Hile (Henkel's mother) had been employed as a cook. Concerning Earl this is interesting... He claimed that Hauptmann left owing him $30. He wrote Henkel several times with no reply. He wrote Hauptmann who sent him a letter and a check for $35. The letter explained that he had " been a little short" when he left Bingham. Hauptmann also sent him several pictures which were given to police by Lister. Also interviewed were the Folsons who Hauptmann & Henkel rented a cabin during this trip. They paid with a $10 for four nights lodging on an $8 fee but told them to keep the change. Mrs. Folson was very upset because they had cleaned their guns using the curtains in the cabin.
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Jul 20, 2019 18:23:34 GMT -5
This would be important if you could show any unusualness about any of these guys besides BRH.
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Jul 21, 2019 3:35:21 GMT -5
Why would Richard, if he's about to enter into a conspiracy (TLC) with some other fellows, take or have a picture of them all together>
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Post by Michael on Jul 21, 2019 10:29:16 GMT -5
Why would Richard, if he's about to enter into a conspiracy (TLC) with some other fellows, take or have a picture of them all together> For me - I personally don't think any of these men were involved. However, the photo isn't the reason because that would suggest none were ever taken of Hauptmann with anyone who ever assisted him in some way. Of course that could be true, but he's hanging around with Mueller and regardless if one believes he knowingly assisted in one way or another its undeniable that Hauptmann bought the gun off of him - which was also illegal. I personally feel like there was more to that story. I also believe (at a minimum) that Mueller was among those assisting with laundering the money. As to John Lister I wouldn't dissuade anyone from looking into him. Who knows? Anything one deems suspicious should be pursued. But from my perspective the name "John" hasn't anything to do with it. That was just another of Condon's inventions meant to obstruct/mislead police.
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Jul 21, 2019 10:51:07 GMT -5
Thanks for answering. I've always thought that there must be some lead somewhere - maybe it's John. How common was an around the world trip in 1932? Like Mary says - doesn't this point to something? What is known about John? Excluding Condon's misleading comments. While we can't be sure that anything Jafsie said was true, we also can't be sure that it was not true.
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Jul 21, 2019 10:54:58 GMT -5
I'd like to complain that because of my picture on here, people think of me as a black guy. They're trying to give me scholarships to important colleges and positions on basketball teams among other things. Stop it - I'm a white guy, and an American citizen who will admit it.
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Jul 21, 2019 12:25:35 GMT -5
After Fisch goes to Germany and John Lister is on his around the world tour, Richard quickly gets caught - sounds like something amiss for poor richard there?
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Post by Michael on Jan 30, 2020 10:49:17 GMT -5
Another thing to consider is the use of "guides." Right? Makes me think if a hunting trip required their use, that this kidnapping might require it even more so.
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Post by aaron on Aug 27, 2021 14:27:18 GMT -5
The name "Lister" would have an English origin, not German. John Lister was a friend of Karl Henkel and also of Isidor Fisch. On the hunting trip to Maine in November of 1932, two pictures appeared on the board of some of the participants, including Hauptmann and the Lister brothers John and Earl. Earl, who lived in Bingham, Maine, was the guide for the hunting expedition. The sister of the Lister brothers identified them in one of the photos, leaving us to try to establish their identity in the second. If John Lister was friendly with Fisch and Henkel, he may well have been invited to attend "John's Birthday Party" held on March 12, 1931. One unidentified man stands in the back row on the left-hand side of John Mohrdieck, the birthday boy. He bears a likeness to the photos of John Lister in the Maine hunting images. In the hunting photos he is wearing dark sunglasses which make identification difficult, but the mouth and chin are similar, together with the shape of the face. At what time Lister met Richard Hauptmann is not certain. Possibly they met through Fisch or Henkel and so would have been acquainted prior to the hunting trip. Ronald Baker was John Lister's father-in-law at that time. (Lister and his wife Dorothy nee Baker were estranged and divorced later.) It was Ronald Baker who recommended that John Lister's brother Earl Lister be the guide for the hunting trip. More later.
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Post by aaron on Aug 28, 2021 9:57:49 GMT -5
Attached please find a photo of John's Birthday Party dated March 1931. John Mohrdieck was 25 years old on March 12, 1931. (Source for this information is on his Declaration of Intention). In the photo John Mohrdieck is in the back row, third from the left on Isidor Fisch's left side. To the left of Mohrdieck stands a man with dark hair, dressed in a dark suit, and showing a wide smile. There have been a number of attempts to identify this man, some claiming that he is Bruno Richard Hauptmann, a mistake obviously since he does not really make a match with BRH. Others in the photo have been identified as Henry Uhlig and Lawrence Pefferly, friends of Isidor Fisch and John Mohrdieck, so we can assume that the man in question is acquainted with Isidor Fisch, John Mohrdieck, and possibly others. The purpose of this exercise is to examine the possibility that the unidentified person is actually John Lister, one of the individuals on a hunting party beginning on November 6, 1932. The party included Karl Henkel as well as Richard Hauptmann. John Lister knew Karl Henkel as well as Fisch. Fisch was not in this expedition, probably not much of a hunter, but in the hunting photos (to be shown later) we will find Hauptmann and Lister together in the hunting party. More analysis later. Thank you for your patience. Attachment Deleted
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Post by aaron on Aug 28, 2021 12:05:09 GMT -5
The sister of Earl and John Lister owned a photo showing the likeness of several of the hunters. She identified her brother Earl as second from the right and her brother John as second from the left. John is wearing a hunter's hat and sunglasses (shades), so the comparison with the man in the birthday photo is not easy, but the mouth, cheek, nose and chin do bear a good likeness. Attachments:
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Post by aaron on Aug 28, 2021 12:29:55 GMT -5
We have one more photo of the hunting trip to consider. This was sent to the board by Michael on July 17, 2019 and appears on imgur. There are four hunters depicted in this one and identified by number. Hauptmann would be number 1 in this photo, while John and Earl must be 2 and 4. The height of the men is difficult to determine since the ground is uneven. Perhaps someone knows which person is represented by the numbers given, though. The hairline of number 4 matches the hairline of the individual in the birthday picture remarkably. He is also wearing the sunglasses, so there may be an eyesight problem. The eyebrows and ears of #4 match also. The shape of the face and chin of #4 also resemble those of the birthday guest, better than those of #2. On the basis of these facts mentioned earlier and the comparisons made of the individuals in the photos, I think we should seriously consider that John Lister was a guest at John Mohrdieck's birthday party in March of 1931. When he met Richard Hauptmann, whether before or during the hunting trip, is another matter for us to investigate. imgur.com6vPc3G7.webloc (248 B)
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Post by Guest on Aug 28, 2021 14:20:37 GMT -5
Attached please find a photo of John's Birthday Party dated March 1931. John Mohrdieck was 25 years old on March 12, 1931. (Source for this information is on his Declaration of Intention). In the photo John Mohrdieck is in the back row, third from the left on Isidor Fisch's left side. To the left of Mohrdieck stands a man with dark hair, dressed in a dark suit, and showing a wide smile. There have been a number of attempts to identify this man, some claiming that he is Bruno Richard Hauptmann, a mistake obviously since he does not really make a match with BRH. Others in the photo have been identified as Henry Uhlig and Lawrence Pefferly, friends of Isidor Fisch and John Mohrdieck, so we can assume that the man in question is acquainted with Isidor Fisch, John Mohrdieck, and possibly others. The purpose of this exercise is to examine the possibility that the unidentified person is actually John Lister, one of the individuals on a hunting party beginning on November 6, 1932. The party included Karl Henkel as well as Richard Hauptmann. John Lister knew Karl Henkel as well as Fisch. Fisch was not in this expedition, probably not much of a hunter, but in the hunting photos (to be shown later) we will find Hauptmann and Lister together in the hunting party. More analysis later. Thank you for your patience. View AttachmentThe man on the right is Hermann Kirsten, Gerta Henkel's father and Karl Henkel's father-in-law. Fisch did not know Hauptmann's hunting guides. Hermann Kirsten died on Nov. 1, 1931.
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Post by aaron on Aug 28, 2021 16:50:31 GMT -5
In "The Case that Never Dies" Lloyd Gardner wrote that Schaefer told the Asst. Attorney-General Robert Peacock that he "knew something about Fisch's friends." At the Henckel's , he said, Fisch met a man they called "John the Bootlegger." who was also a friend of Hauptmann. Henckel and John the Booklegger often went hunting in New Jersey and the three (Hauptmann, Henckel and John) planned a trip to Maine. So, according to Gardner, Schaefer said that Hauptmann, Henckel, and Fisch knew this John. I presumed that since Hauptmann and Henckel invited John Lister to hunt with them in Maine, that he was the "John the Bootlegger" mentioned. No mention was made of any involvement of Fisch in the hunting expedition although he was called a friend of John. I did not question the source which appeared detailed and reliable. (The Case That Never Dies, page 252)
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Post by Guest on Aug 28, 2021 17:55:19 GMT -5
In "The Case that Never Dies" Lloyd Gardner wrote that Schaefer told the Asst. Attorney-General Robert Peacock that he "knew something about Fisch's friends." At the Henckel's , he said, Fisch met a man they called "John the Bootlegger." who was also a friend of Hauptmann. Henckel and John the Booklegger often went hunting in New Jersey and the three (Hauptmann, Henckel and John) planned a trip to Maine. So, according to Gardner, Schaefer said that Hauptmann, Henckel, and Fisch knew this John. I presumed that since Hauptmann and Henckel invited John Lister to hunt with them in Maine, that he was the "John the Bootlegger" mentioned. No mention was made of any involvement of Fisch in the hunting expedition although he was called a friend of John. I did not question the source which appeared detailed and reliable. (The Case That Never Dies, page 252) This alleged "John the Bootlegger" was John Chizacky from Garfield, New Jersey, a close friend of Karl Henkel whom Henkel introduced to Hauptmann. The three of them went hunting together in New Jersey for rabbits and other small animals. Hauptmann had even used Chizacky's address as his own to obtain a hunting license in that state. Chizacky had a pilot's license and at one time worked for Asst. DA Breslin. Fisch knew Chizacky through Henkel but they weren't close friends. Fisch never hunted. The closest he came to animals was cutting their hides into pieces for ladies' fur coats. The man in the photo is Hermann Kirsten, Uhlig's and Fisch's fellow furrier from Leipzig. There are photos out there of the Kirsten family and Uhlig and Fisch and others enjoying an outing in a car, with Hermann Kirsten driving, in 1928. Perhaps someone can post them here.
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Post by aaron on Aug 28, 2021 19:23:09 GMT -5
Michael discusses the involvement of John Chizacky in the hunting expedition in New Jersey (Vol. 3). He was not involved at all in the hunting trip of Maine though Shaefer did indicate that Bootlegger John, Henkel, and Hauptmann were planning a trip to Maine. If Chizacky was Bootlegger John, then Shaefer had a memory problem or was misinformed. Chizacky was not a friend of Hauptmann but met him through Henkel and went hunting with him in N.J. Hauptmann had not known Chizacky previously, but Henkel and Hauptmann spent the night at Chizacky's house in Garfield N.J. Chizacky did not have a good impression of Hauptmann's personality and did not want anything further to do with him. There was a rumor (sorry I cannot recollect the source) that Hermann Kirsten was involved in bootlegging. Perhaps you have some information re: his involvement. I look forward to seeing any photos of Kirsten that members of the board can provide for us.
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Post by aaron on Aug 31, 2021 8:26:21 GMT -5
Two observations here regarding Richard Hauptmann's hunting activities and personal characteristics. First, in November of 1932 he traveled to Maine for a hunting trip with Karl Henckel and and several others, and after leaving Maine he crossed New York to New Jersey and, again with Henckel, enjoyed another hunting trip, this time in search of small animals. He had all the time, energy, and finances required for this lengthy safari (my word) which he completed shortly before his 33rd birthday which he would celebrate on November 26. He must have been in good physical shape, as well as financial, but the interest in hunting must have been intense. Second, the reactions to Hauptmann personally varied. Some found him to be warm, friendly and sociable. Others, like John Chizacky, disliked him intensely from the get-go. After Hauptmann and Henckel had spent the night in the Chizacky house, John told Henckel not to bring Hauptmann back. Hauptmann's landlady also found him cold and abrupt. Hauptmann did not like authority, apparently, and so was distant when confronted with someone who had authority or perhaps some control regarding his situation. He must have disliked John C. for a reason and so was not his warm and friendly self. There were two sides to Hauptmann. He may have been something of an actor, or perhaps he disliked certain persons intensely for whatever reason and did not hide his feelings.
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Joe
Lt. Colonel
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Post by Joe on Aug 31, 2021 8:37:53 GMT -5
Two observations here regarding Richard Hauptmann's hunting activities and personal characteristics. First, in November of 1932 he traveled to Maine for a hunting trip with Karl Henckel and and several others, and after leaving Maine he crossed New York to New Jersey and, again with Henckel, enjoyed another hunting trip, this time in search of small animals. He had all the time, energy, and finances required for this lengthy safari (my word) which he completed shortly before his 33rd birthday which he would celebrate on November 26. He must have been in good physical shape, as well as financial, but the interest in hunting must have been intense. Second, the reactions to Hauptmann personally varied. Some found him to be warm, friendly and sociable. Others, like John Chizacky, disliked him intensely from the get-go. After Hauptmann and Henckel had spent the night in the Chizacky house, John told Henckel not to bring Hauptmann back. Hauptmann's landlady also found him cold and abrupt. Hauptmann did not like authority, apparently, and so was distant when confronted with someone who had authority or perhaps some control regarding his situation. He must have disliked John C. for a reason and so was not his warm and friendly self. There were two sides to Hauptmann. He may have been something of an actor, or perhaps he disliked certain persons intensely for whatever reason and did not hide his feelings. Good observations here and investigators at large, really missed the boat here when it came to trying to get a confession from Hauptmann. Dudley Schoenfeld, and James Finn to an extent, was right on the money when it came to his assessment of Hauptmann's iron will and jaw in response to any heavy handed interrogation and the standard non-empathic tactics of the day. Condon, from his lengthy background in the education system and as a teacher, also understood Hauptman's inner workings and how he needed to be approached in a way in which mutual trust could be established. I believe both men could have ultimately accomplished far more than the three investigative forces combined in extracting a full confession and the naming of any others involved in the crime.
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Post by aaron on Aug 31, 2021 12:18:10 GMT -5
Thank you for your comments, Joe. Hauptmann had a great deal of determination. Witness his attempts to get into the US illegally. He made it here on the third try. In spite of his resolve, he was not clever enough to go a different route but simply repeated the initial effort until he was successful. So plenty of determination, but not particularly creative. Yes, the questioning should have not been made with the use of force to obtain a confession or attempt to find confederates. The questioner should take into account what the individual prides himself on and address the questions to him in a conversational way, complimenting him on his prized attributes but wording the questions in a way that he would insert some information by accident on his part. As I said before, this man was not clever. Sometimes a little praise or admiration goes a long way to establish rapport and then obtain information inadvertently. John Douglas used this approach, by the way, and was successful, but he spent time first trying to understand how the mind (and personality) of the accused works. I am not suggesting that Haupmann lacked intelligence. It's a matter of understanding how a person goes about reaching his goals and how he solves problems.
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Post by Sue on Sept 4, 2021 11:00:04 GMT -5
How many (verified and documented) hunting trips did Hauptmann go on?
Is there a list?
I've read that Hauptmann also took trips to hunt in upstate New York? Hauptmann went to northern New York to look into purchasing a dog or two.
Is there a chronological list somewhere of all hunting trips attended by Hauptmann?
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Post by bernardt on Mar 25, 2022 11:34:44 GMT -5
I want the list of the individuals that attend the hunting trips with Bruno 1. The Bingham, Maine hunting trip consisted of Hauptmann and Henkel. Roland Baker recommended Earl Lister to the men to act as a guide. Earl brought his brother John Lister who also brought a friend named Harold Carlquist along with him. Along the way the men picked up another friend of the Listers named Leo Miller. 2. The Garfield, New Jersey hunting trip consisted of Hauptmann and Henkel. Henkel had previously planned to hunt with John Chizacky then asked him if it was alright to bring Hauptmann along. Police were initially interested in Chizacky because his first name was John, he lived in NJ, and he also knew Fisch. According to John Lister's estranged wife, Dorothy, John became acquainted with Augusta Hile when she worked as cook at the Hoff Estate in Southbury Town CT. Augusta helped John Lister make contact with her son Karl Henkel who helped to make the arrangements on the trip and accompanied Hauptmann throughout though his picture does not appear on the two photos. Harold Carlquist, according to the US Census, was also from Southbury Town in New Haven Ct. He was born in 1900, which would make him 32 at the time of the trip. Leo Miller was from West Haven Town in New Haven Ct. He was born in 1908. Lister also knew Fisch, perhaps through Karl Henkel. John Lister had lost his job with the Maine Railway Co. in 1931 and moved to New Jersey living near Hopewell. He very likely was making money rum-running, and one can wonder what exactly how he came to know Mrs. Hile and also Miller and Carlquist. Possibly through the bootlegging business.
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Post by bernardt on Mar 25, 2022 18:23:07 GMT -5
The state of Connecticut was numbered among those most reluctant to accept the 18th Amendment on Prohibition. Saloons continued to operate. At one time New Haven was estimated to have about 600 saloon operating in the city limits. Smugglers' ships traveled down Rum Row around Nantucket and thence to Long Island, the East River and the Hudson River, leaving their cargo for the New York and the New Jersey rum runners. West Haven Ct. was a coast city; New Haven, not far from the sea. It would have been a profitable place for a bootlegger to do business, and John Lister may well have been tempted to make his money in bootlegging following his exodus from Maine and its railroad system. Those in his hometown of Bingham, Maine, were said to marvel at his flashy automobile and the amount of money he seemed to possess, not a member of the unemployed certainly. He may well have earned the nickname "John the Bootlegger." Now we need to questions his friendships and associations with the like of Augusta Hile, Karl Henkel, Leo Miller, Harold Carlquist, and yes--Isidor Fisch.
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