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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2019 7:32:48 GMT -5
Amy - you are SO SMART! I learn so much from you. Thanks , but I gain all my knowledge from the reports done by others, like the Squibb report and Liz Pagel's Soil report. These documents are so important when evaluating that grave site and what was found there.
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Post by wolfman666 on Jun 25, 2019 11:03:07 GMT -5
don't agree amy, I think the body was there all along
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Post by trojanusc on Jun 26, 2019 23:26:01 GMT -5
The agreement was that animals would generally either eat the surface organs to get to the deeper ones, or at he very least tear out the unpalatable ones to get to the edible ones. Here the organs were removed while the ones closer to the surface were kept in tact. This does not indicate animals but rather that certain organs were removed for examination. I am not sure this indicates a surgical removal of certain organs. Something to keep in mind here is that the body was found face down which means the back side of the body was in the elevated position while the surface organs as you call them were in the lowest position (chest) which was against the ground like the face. The heart and liver might still have been present simply because they were not on the surface but underneath other organs when animals first approached this body. This is certainly possible, but it's even tricker to access some of these organs from the back through the rib cage. To quote Dr. Lauren Schwartz, a renowned pediatric surgeon, who studied the autopsy report and photos, came to the conclusion that the body was likely placed where it was to be found, but care was taken to remove organs which could immediately point to an illness: "Some of the deeper organs were missing... but not he superficial. I don't know of an animal that could go around, for example, the heart and take out part of the lung. Whoever had the body didn't want it to be obvious that he had deformities, so the selective removal of certain organs was very interesting."
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Post by lightningjew on Jun 27, 2019 0:35:56 GMT -5
Interesting... Do you know what her take is on the last doctor’s report (the overlapping digits, oversized head, unclosed fontanel, etc.) or why the skull had the post-mortem consistency of an orange peel?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2019 11:09:40 GMT -5
This is certainly possible, but it's even tricker to access some of these organs from the back through the rib cage. Thank you. You make my point exactly as to why the heart and liver might still have been present when the body was found. I do share the same position as Dr. Schwartz, being that the body was purposely placed where it was found. I do not believe it was dragged to that place. I believe it was placed face down in that location. I do not believe the body was there very long before it was discovered. I think the dark soil found with the body is evidence that decomposition took place at another burial location. Some of that material was transferred to the Mount Rose site when the body was dug up and brought in the burlap bag to that location and then dumped there. That is why you have two types of soil found with this body. I am not as convinced that there was a deliberate removal of organs to hide illness. If that was the case, why was the enlarged head with the open fontanel allowed to be found? Why was the foot with the seriously overlapped toes (requiring special shoes to enable the child to walk) left to be found. These features expose illness and deformity. However, I do think Dr. Schwartz theory is certainly one to be considered. I am just not inclined to it.
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Post by trojanusc on Jun 28, 2019 14:07:24 GMT -5
This is certainly possible, but it's even tricker to access some of these organs from the back through the rib cage. Thank you. You make my point exactly as to why the heart and liver might still have been present when the body was found. I do share the same position as Dr. Schwartz, being that the body was purposely placed where it was found. I do not believe it was dragged to that place. I believe it was placed face down in that location. I do not believe the body was there very long before it was discovered. I think the dark soil found with the body is evidence that decomposition took place at another burial location. Some of that material was transferred to the Mount Rose site when the body was dug up and brought in the burlap bag to that location and then dumped there. That is why you have two types of soil found with this body. I am not as convinced that there was a deliberate removal of organs to hide illness. If that was the case, why was the enlarged head with the open fontanel allowed to be found? Why was the foot with the seriously overlapped toes (requiring special shoes to enable the child to walk) left to be found. These features expose illness and deformity. However, I do think Dr. Schwartz theory is certainly one to be considered. I am just not inclined to it. Lindbergh was being extorted, no? If the body could not be certainly identified as that of his son, the extortion could continue endlessly. It’s possible, I think, to make a calculation as to which external external identifying characteristics would help establish identity while removing any that would point to serious illness. The toes, for example, were crucial in establishing identity. The head, too, as the teeth was the primary means.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2019 17:40:28 GMT -5
Lindbergh was being extorted, no? If the body could not be certainly identified as that of his son, the extortion could continue endlessly. It’s possible, I think, to make a calculation as to which external external identifying characteristics would help establish identity while removing any that would point to serious illness. The toes, for example, were crucial in establishing identity. The head, too, as the teeth was the primary means. Agreed that Lindbergh was being extorted. Agree that establishing identity of the corpse was absolutely necessary to end any further extortion attempts. The skeleton reveals illness and deformity. As is known, Lindbergh was a Eugenicist. Rickets and that foot problem would have been very problematic for him. Yet this became exposed in order to make an ID of the child. Internal organs which might have revealed other health conditions would have been compromised through decomposition and scavengers destroying/devouring organs. I fail to see the need to remove any organs, in advance, from that body. Plus there is no evidence that suggests such a removal was done. The absence of these organs from that corpse does not, of itself, prove this happened. It is an interesting theory, as I had said before. If there was a removal of organs for some scientific purpose and not to "hide" illness, I suppose that could be a possibility. If the theory is that organs are being removed to hide the child's serious health issues, is this being done to protect Lindbergh in some way?? If these people are doing this to aid Lindbergh, then why are they extorting $50,000 from him to begin with?
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Post by hurtelable on Jun 29, 2019 7:28:54 GMT -5
I agree with those statements as well. But wouldn't this give Lindbergh all the motivation he would need to make either a knowingly false identification of the body or a positive identification even if he were in doubt? Any kind of positive identification by Lindbergh would likely end the extortion attempts
As for Gow, she would also have such a motivation for a false identification or a doubtful identification, as she and Lindbergh had to be on the same page on this. In Gow's case, any kind of positive identification would expedite her plans to leave the US and return home to Europe.
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Post by Michael on Jun 29, 2019 7:33:39 GMT -5
Lindbergh was being extorted, no? If the body could not be certainly identified as that of his son, the extortion could continue endlessly. From my perspective this is the biggest issue. I believe the child had been "moved" to that location and wasn't there on March 1st for several reasons. The common sense reason is that no way does someone negotiate a ransom with that body laying where it could easily be discovered. Even with the inside information Condon must have been providing them. So, for example, since they knew it hadn't been found (because Condon definitely would have tipped them off) - that does not mean it "couldn't" be found. It's like an axe hanging over their head and an entirely unnecessary situation. Just the Extortion alone shows the degree of plotting and planning. People so engaged don't do this in one place but throw caution to the wind in another equally important situation. Unless its two very different groups of people that just doesn't happen. So we must look at each and every situation and evaluate accordingly right? And what I see tells me that body was thrown where it was so it WOULD be found. So the question is WHY? These people were supposed to be responsible for kidnapping and murder. Evil. But yet this act saves Lindbergh from an unlimited amount of extortion attempts. It "rewards" him for paying the "reward." Why do these "evil" criminals care? These are the same people who were lying about CJr. being alive in the first place. So they morph from evil to conscientious and do Lindbergh a "solid." That was a hell of a risk in more ways than one. Remember how important the identity of the body was at trial.
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Post by lightningjew on Jun 29, 2019 12:54:18 GMT -5
It doesn't seem, then, that the kidnapper-extortionists did dump the body, but rather the person with the most to gain by its discovery did this--meaning, of course, that this person had to know where the body was being kept and was therefore somehow in on the whole thing.
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Post by trojanusc on Jun 29, 2019 17:41:08 GMT -5
Lindbergh was being extorted, no? If the body could not be certainly identified as that of his son, the extortion could continue endlessly. From my perspective this is the biggest issue. I believe the child had been "moved" to that location and wasn't there on March 1st for several reasons. The common sense reason is that no way does someone negotiate a ransom with that body laying where it could easily be discovered. Even with the inside information Condon must have been providing them. So, for example, since they knew it hadn't been found (because Condon definitely would have tipped them off) - that does not mean it "couldn't" be found. It's like an axe hanging over their head and an entirely unnecessary situation. Just the Extortion alone shows the degree of plotting and planning. People so engaged don't do this in one place but throw caution to the wind in another equally important situation. Unless its two very different groups of people that just doesn't happen. So we must look at each and every situation and evaluate accordingly right? And what I see tells me that body was thrown where it was so it WOULD be found. So the question is WHY? These people were supposed to be responsible for kidnapping and murder. Evil. But yet this act saves Lindbergh from an unlimited amount of extortion attempts. It "rewards" him for paying the "reward." Why do these "evil" criminals care? These are the same people who were lying about CJr. being alive in the first place. So they morph from evil to conscientious and do Lindbergh a "solid." That was a hell of a risk in more ways than one. Remember how important the identity of the body was at trial. This makes the most sense to me. Dr. Gardner told me it was his belief that the kidnap “gang” likely came to Lindbergh via Carrel (with an additional layer of insulation) who used shady figures to obtain cadavers and other research materials. This was somewhat common place with medical schools at the time. Given this, it always made sense to me the corpse was brought to Carrel for research. The organ removal and limited evidence of embalming add to this evidence. Lindbergh was then double crossed with the extortion. The “gang” was paid twice to keep their mouths shut. After it was over, the body was exhumed and left where it was by someone not associated with the extortion. This was the only way Lindbergh could not be extorted in perpetuity.
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Post by hurtelable on Jun 30, 2019 7:26:30 GMT -5
If a gang which specialized in procuring cadavers was involved here (and it is a possibility), that would imply that they had the capability of substituting the body of another child as a stand-in for Charlie while the real CAL Jr.'s fate was kept secret. And they could have chosen the stand-in to have some characteristics similar to the real Charlie in order to pull off the fake.
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Post by Michael on Jun 30, 2019 8:20:39 GMT -5
Dr. Gardner told me it was his belief that the kidnap “gang” likely came to Lindbergh via Carrel (with an additional layer of insulation) who used shady figures to obtain cadavers and other research materials. This was somewhat common place with medical schools at the time. Given this, it always made sense to me the corpse was brought to Carrel for research. The organ removal and limited evidence of embalming add to this evidence. Lindbergh was then double crossed with the extortion. The “gang” was paid twice to keep their mouths shut. After it was over, the body was exhumed and left where it was by someone not associated with the extortion. This was the only way Lindbergh could not be extorted in perpetuity. There's several possibilities to consider. First is the Lone-Wolf which almost nobody accepts anymore. Second is that an outside group did this on their own. Third is that an outside group solicited help from the inside. Last is that an inside source solicited help from the outside. Police also strongly considered that it was an inside job, and also the possibility that a Local(s) was involved. Since I wrote in V1 what my beliefs are then its no secret where I personally stand: Someone hired people to do this and that an insider was involved. No doubt in my mind Whateley either knew what happened or at least believed he knew. Now to the theory you've mentioned above... I've considered it some time ago but I personally believe it's a bridge too far. I would never dissuade anyone from pursuing it though but I just don't see the need for examination. Some people believe the child was "supposed" to be put in a home and live out his days there. But I believe this child was meant to die, be disposed of, and then "life goes on" eventually with a new and very healthy baby.
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Post by leeforman2 on Jul 4, 2019 17:46:32 GMT -5
Hello everyone - updated...
I have ascertained the name of the owner of the parcel of land and am writing same to gain access to the site - for research purposes - which will include a small survey with a GPS call, and metal detecting the area.
Happy Fourth of July!
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Post by scathma on Jul 5, 2019 10:31:31 GMT -5
How far in from the road would you estimate the circle of stones to be?
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Post by leeforman2 on Jul 5, 2019 13:08:47 GMT -5
After looking at it again - I am assuming that the photo of Allen and Wilson at the location of the discovery is taken with the road behind them. I thought perhaps there was even an indication of telephone wires in the photo - but the aerial view makes it look like there was only one wire. No big deal. Here's a cleaned-up blow-up. Yes! Just under the 1b limit. Note where the crowd has gathered.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2019 15:13:45 GMT -5
I have ascertained the name of the owner of the parcel of land and am writing same to gain access to the site - for research purposes - which will include a small survey with a GPS call, and metal detecting the area. Lee, please keep us updated on this. There are several of us who would like to check out this location. I was very concerned when I saw the NO TRESPASSING sign posted on the pole. I don't want to get into any trouble.
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Post by Michael on Jul 6, 2019 6:02:05 GMT -5
After looking at it again - I am assuming that the photo of Allen and Wilson at the location of the discovery is taken with the road behind them. I thought perhaps there was even an indication of telephone wires in the photo - but the aerial view makes it look like there was only one wire. No big deal. Here's a cleaned-up blow-up. Yes! Just under the 1b limit. Note where the crowd has gathered. I wish I could throw in my two-cents but the only way I know where I'm at is if I drive there myself.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2019 8:05:49 GMT -5
I wish I could throw in my two-cents but the only way I know where I'm at is if I drive there myself. This is awesome! You know how to find the location. We would not have to try to figure this out. The topography of the area has changed since 1932. It is now overgrown making it difficult to pinpoint the spot except for the two streams. Would you consider leading a group who might be interested in venturing to this location? I already know there are a few of us besides Lee Forman who want to do this!
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Post by Michael on Jul 7, 2019 7:07:33 GMT -5
You know how to find the location. We would not have to try to figure this out. The topography of the area has changed since 1932. It is now overgrown making it difficult to pinpoint the spot except for the two streams. Would you consider leading a group who might be interested in venturing to this location? I already know there are a few of us besides Lee Forman who want to do this! Well its been about 14 years since I've been there but I am reasonably certain I'd be able to. My father brought me when I was a kid and I've always been able to return on my own based on that visit. Lee is most likely in the right spot. Last I was there the sketch and the spot are identical in the ">" formation with the "empty stream" on both sides. It would be hard for me to commit to anything with a 100% certainty but we could try to coordinate something via PM or email. Your point about being "overgrown" is legit for sure so the best time to go is in the fall because its easier to see and navigate.
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Post by jack7 on Jul 7, 2019 10:36:50 GMT -5
Update to Mary:
We'll be in one car and two bikes.
Jack
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Post by jack7 on Jul 7, 2019 10:50:39 GMT -5
Congratulations, M, you used Dr. Gardner's name correctly. Stop calling him Elmer or whatever his name is. You should know above a lot of others that an author's name should not be disrespected! It's tough to write a book - nuff said. Jack
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Jul 7, 2019 11:44:35 GMT -5
On some of this stuff, you have to go by how likely is that to happen? Like the baby was taken, but for really how long in any kind of captivity which could be attributed to others? That kidnap night and quite a while he was very hot. So some of you are saying he was upscounded by some doctors who picked away at his organs for some reason (known to you?) I think you should tell what you think you know about this, and lets see what flies!
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Post by leeforman2 on Jul 7, 2019 14:01:37 GMT -5
So I just wanted to add - this is pretty consistent historically - I try to head out to some place of historical interest [in the present] and it's private property, or worse - Government property. I had planned to write the folks that now own Highfields and request permission to metal detect - I think the odds just went to the devil. It's G-man land now. Won't stop me from trying - but wow - will it be doubtful. The D.O.V.E.S. RCH (D.O.V.E.S.) serves the juvenile female population who have been identified with behavioral and substance abuse problems. D.O.V.E.S. is the sole community-based program providing the necessary services and support to all adjudicated juvenile females requiring residential and secure residential placement in New Jersey. Located in Hopewell, NJ the facility is a New Jersey Register of Historic Places. This program encompasses over 600 acres and was the site of the infamous Lindbergh baby kidnapping. Residents are acquainted with the history of this aviation pioneer known as the father of the Trans-Atlantic flights and provide tours as requested by the public. This property, also known as “Highfields,” was once the home of the famous Charles A. Lindbergh Jr. D.O.V.E.S hosts a maximum of 16 residents with 2 relapse beds. The relapse beds are specifically for those who have previously completed the program. Residents are admitted on both committed and probation status ranging in age from 13 to 24.
BTW - I did delete my last posts - and I apologize - I found the owner of that parcel of land and have written to ask permission to access - this site isn't closed to public viewing so I thought it best to improve my odds by trying to ask first.
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Post by Michael on Jul 8, 2019 7:58:09 GMT -5
Congratulations, M, you used Dr. Gardner's name correctly. Stop calling him Elmer or whatever his name is. You should know above a lot of others that an author's name should not be disrespected! It's tough to write a book - nuff said. Jack Lloyd is a good friend of mine and he's read both books. Never once did he mention that he felt disrespected in any way. But I'm glad to see you acting as a watchdog. Looking out for people and worrying about respect is always a good thing right? Next, if I followed the "rules" I wouldn't be able to get my points across in the way in which "I" want to - and my books would look completely different. So in this case its about what works for "me." Some people hate the way I've structured them but like the facts. Some "get" how I've done it. It's not about etiquette or whatever else someone might care more about. For me its just about facts and getting the new material out there for everyone to consider.
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Jul 8, 2019 10:24:56 GMT -5
You got 'er done - that's what cpunts.
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Post by jack7 on Jul 8, 2019 10:25:41 GMT -5
cpounts = counts
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Post by dave on Jul 10, 2019 9:32:30 GMT -5
Hey Good Buddy Jack, Short and quick! I went several times to the site where the body was found, I thought! In 1986 I want to the site with three old troopers who where at the site when the body was found. At that time the State of New Jersey was planing on putting a historic marker at the site. All I will say is that where most researchers go, ain't it.
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Post by dave on Jul 10, 2019 10:07:29 GMT -5
Jack, Just a little side info. On April 12th 1984 I had a Hopewell Police Officer drop me off at the site. I had a heavy coat, cassette tape recorder, and a brown metal folding chair. It was 10:30 at night. I took my chair, walked to the site (I thought was the site) and sat down. I wanted to know what the place was like at night. Sites, sounds, smells. What animals would come around. Do that kind of research. Showing up with sunny blue sky, nice spring winds, don't get it. Live the case is what I always say! I was there three hours and the cop came back and took me back to my motel in Pinnington where I was staying. The times have changed. Try getting a cop to do that for you these days!
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Post by wolfman666 on Jul 11, 2019 11:04:21 GMT -5
mike wernt we there when that guy gave us a tour years ago?
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