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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2019 11:15:31 GMT -5
So this picture would be New Year's Eve 1932. I will try to name the people in the picture as I think them to be:
Back row seated on sofa, left to right:
Anita Lutzenberg, Hans Kloppenburg, Isidor Fisch, Gerta Henkel, Carl Henkel
Immediate row in front of sofa, left to right:
Richard Hauptmann, Anna Hauptmann, Maria Mueller, Louise Wollenberg, Otto Wollenberg
The man sitting in front of the Wollenbergs is Rudolph Haase.
If anyone knows any of these people to be of a different name, please correct me!
I was looking very hard at the tables in this room to see if I could identify any of them being a Mersman table! The one on the very hard left holding that enormous plant/tree caught my eye!
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Post by xjd on Apr 12, 2019 19:49:21 GMT -5
Isidor sure is getting cozy with Gerta especially with Karl right there
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Apr 13, 2019 7:46:32 GMT -5
So this picture would be New Year's Eve 1932. I will try to name the people in the picture as I think them to be: Back row seated on sofa, left to right: Anita Lutzenberg, Hans Kloppenburg, Isidor Fisch, Gerta Henkel, Carl Henkel Immediate row in front of sofa, left to right: Richard Hauptmann, Anna Hauptmann, Maria Mueller, Louise Wollenberg, Otto Wollenberg The man sitting in front of the Wollenbergs is Willie Haas. If anyone knows any of these people to be of a different name, please correct me! I was looking very hard at the tables in this room to see if I could identify any of them being a Mersman table! The one on the very hard left holding that enormous plant/tree caught my eye! Amy, I believe you're 100% correct! I wonder who took the picture.. Hans Mueller?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2019 8:04:34 GMT -5
Thanks, Joe! I have wondered about who the picture taker was also. Hans Mueller would be a possibility if he wasn't working that night. You bring up something I should look into!
Does Hauptmann look like he is holding a cigar in his right hand? He did like to smoke them. On October 29, 1932 there was a $10 ransom gold certificate that was traced back to the United Cigar Store on Jamaican Ave in Queens, NY. It causes one to wonder if there might be a connection here!
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Post by wolfman666 on Apr 13, 2019 8:39:56 GMT -5
i have a picture of Hauptman with his arm around greta on a couch
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2019 9:05:06 GMT -5
i have a picture of Hauptman with his arm around greta on a couch Oh boy!! Could it be that Gerta never met a man she didn't like? I know that Isidor Fisch and Gerta Henkel knew each other in Leipzig before either of them came to America. I do think it is a friendship thing going on with them.
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Post by hurtelable on Apr 13, 2019 12:16:20 GMT -5
Just a couple of thoughts came to mind about Mersman tables, which I'm throwing out here:
If there indeed was a Mersman table in Hauptmann's apartment, was there an inventory of apartment items that law enforcement compiled after BRH's arrest that such a table would be listed on?
Also, I would think that the Mersman table with the confession written on it was not unique. In other words, I would think that there were more than one table of that model which came out of the Mersman factory, all with the same distance between the screw holes in the base and all of which would be consistent with use as a template for the ransom note signature. Maybe no exactly "mass production" in numbers of such tables, but the one that wound up in the NJSP facility wouldn't be the only one.
Now as to the photo at the top of thread: Hardly looks like a bunch of Nazis there! And amy 35, just curious: how did you identify everyone in the photo.
And one more item from the photo: Hauptman is holding a cigar! That correlates with ransom money being found spent in cigar stores, although a much greater percentage of men in general were cigar smokers back then as compared to now.
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Post by Michael on Apr 13, 2019 12:34:10 GMT -5
If there indeed was a Mersman table in Hauptmann's apartment, was there an inventory of apartment items that law enforcement compiled after BRH's arrest that such a table would be listed on? There are several reports which mention items discovered. Some items were taken and some were not. Items taken have (what amounted to) a chain of custody or receipts showing who had possession and where it went. So its important to have all of the reports because the different LE Agencies were not sharing everything. No Mersman table listed as being in the apartment. If this table was there they'd have found it and there no doubt in my mind immediately noticed the holes. Like I mentioned, they grabbed something else they believed was the device but it didn't match - so they were looking. But as I've also said below - there's no doubt if that piece WAS in the apartment it would have been introduced in Court and there wouldn't be much debate here about if it was real or not.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2019 13:49:26 GMT -5
Now as to the photo at the top of thread: Hardly looks like a bunch of Nazis there! And amy 35, just curious: how did you identify everyone in the photo. And one more item from the photo: Hauptman is holding a cigar! That correlates with ransom money being found spent in cigar stores, although a much greater percentage of men in general were cigar smokers back then as compared to now. LOL on the Nazi comment! I have, over the years, seen a lot of pictures in the newspapers of people regarding this case. When Hauptmann became attached to the case, so many pictures were printed of people Hauptmann associated with, especially his social group from Hunters Island. That is how I came to recognize these people. Thanks for confirming that it is a cigar he is holding. Hauptmann was a cigarette smoker also. Nice to be certain! Did Hauptmann do the cigar buying or could someone else (perhaps an accomplice) have bought them for him??
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2019 14:04:38 GMT -5
If this table was there they'd have found it and there no doubt in my mind immediately noticed the holes. Like I mentioned, they grabbed something else they believed was the device but it didn't match - so they were looking. But as I've also said below - there's no doubt if that piece WAS in the apartment it would have been introduced in Court and there wouldn't be much debate here about if it was real or not. Why do you think they would have immediately suspected a table for the hole maker? What if the table had been reassembled in 1932 after using it as a template for the holes? Did LE take all the Hauptmann furniture apart looking at the tables and such as possible instruments for making ransom note holes? The item that was grabbed by LE as the possible hole maker, was that a punch that was found in the Rauch basement? Victor Schuessler, who lived in the same apartment house as Hauptmann did, was an upholstery worker who had some tools in that basement. Victor didn't move into that apartment until August of 1932 but he did say he had some tools down there.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2019 14:15:53 GMT -5
There are several reports which mention items discovered. Some items were taken and some were not. But as I've also said below - there's no doubt if that piece WAS in the apartment it would have been introduced in Court and there wouldn't be much debate here about if it was real or not. Didn't Condon say that the ransom hole maker was taken away by the man in charge of this kidnapping/extortion, therefore limiting the number of punched paper that was available to write these notes on? If what Condon said is believable, then the hole maker was never at Hauptmann's apartment to be found in 1934.
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Post by Mbg on Apr 13, 2019 19:18:59 GMT -5
And Hauptmann would have known how to spell Hamburg.
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Post by Michael on Apr 14, 2019 7:05:00 GMT -5
Why do you think they would have immediately suspected a table for the hole maker? What if the table had been reassembled in 1932 after using it as a template for the holes? Did LE take all the Hauptmann furniture apart looking at the tables and such as possible instruments for making ransom note holes? The item that was grabbed by LE as the possible hole maker, was that a punch that was found in the Rauch basement? Victor Schuessler, who lived in the same apartment house as Hauptmann did, was an upholstery worker who had some tools in that basement. Victor didn't move into that apartment until August of 1932 but he did say he had some tools down there. Not specifically a "table" but anything and everything. They were searching for something that could have made them. They were taking everything apart looking for compartments or "safes" chiseled out within the furniture and moldings, etc. Certainly one could debate me about what they would have found or not found but I am convinced if that table was there they'd have found these holes then matched them up. Yes. That punch is a perfect example. It demonstrates their awareness.
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Post by Michael on Apr 14, 2019 7:20:22 GMT -5
Didn't Condon say that the ransom hole maker was taken away by the man in charge of this kidnapping/extortion, therefore limiting the number of punched paper that was available to write these notes on? If what Condon said is believable, then the hole maker was never at Hauptmann's apartment to be found in 1934. The thing about Condon to remember is that he was privy to many discussions among the Police. He was also the subject of a tug-of-war between the various agencies. So ... to give an example ... if an husband and wife were arguing about something the best thing would be to keep the children out of it by sending them outside or to their rooms so they don't hear it. Everything seemed to be discussed in front of him and sometimes even used to "poison" his mind against a specific LE officer or entire agency. He's privy to just about everything and the guy used it against them. I am also convinced that he was working to keep those people who were attempting to get the money safe. So it was his job to distract and obstruct LE to that end. But with this in mind its also possible he did know about certain things on the other end too. So its a double-edged sword trying to figure out what might be true and what might not be. I've seen it suggested in the past that Hauptmann was working with someone because the Ransom Box was never found. Well we know that to be true now don't we? Next, there was no colored ink found in his apartment either and I've seen that pointed to as something to assist with his "innocence." It could be that once the ransom was paid these people got rid of everything - or that these notes were written somewhere else. The idea that Hauptmann was alone, I think, has been completely destroyed so it makes perfect sense to me that certain tasks were performed away from his apartment.
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Post by Joe on Apr 14, 2019 17:50:54 GMT -5
Thanks, Joe! I have wondered about who the picture taker was also. Hans Mueller would be a possibility if he wasn't working that night. You bring up something I should look into! Does Hauptmann look like he is holding a cigar in his right hand? He did like to smoke them. On October 29, 1932 there was a $10 ransom gold certificate that was traced back to the United Cigar Store on Jamaican Ave in Queens, NY. It causes one to wonder if there might be a connection here! I was thinking either Hans Mueller or possibly Henry Uhlig, as besides Gerta, Fisch wan't really tight with anyone else there except Richard. Yes, that is a cigar Hauptmann is smoking. Hauptmann was actually a non-smoker until he joined the army in 1917. Years ago, while reading microfiche at the local library, I discovered a newspaper article about how a Flemington tobacconist had donated one of his pipes and some tobacco to Hauptmann. Well, Richard made short work of that pipe, actually burning a hole through it! It was only after his complaining that he received another one gratis from the tobacconist.
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Post by hurtelable on Apr 14, 2019 19:39:53 GMT -5
Should be "Jamaica Avenue" (no "n" at the end.}
Was this the earliest a ransom bill was passed at a cigar store? I don't think it means very much, because the cigar store shopkeeper(s) never ID'd Hauptmann as the passer of the bill, nor even gave a description of a man comparable to him as a passer. You must realize also that cigar smoking was very popular in that era, compared to today. No statitsics were compiled of which I am aware, but it's not unreasonable to estimate that around 50% of American men were smoking cigars at the time, men on all rungs of the socioeconomic ladder. Thus the ranks of potential cigar store customers were large, and one can't narrow down suspects very well merely on the basis that ransom bill passer(s) were cigar store customer(s).
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2019 7:38:04 GMT -5
I am also convinced that he was working to keep those people who were attempting to get the money safe. So it was his job to distract and obstruct LE to that end. We are on the same page here!! So, Michael, I am thinking that maybe Condon created the statement that the leader "took the symbol maker away" in order to validate the Rice paper notes that he had received that did not have the symbol signature on them?? He did turn them over to the authorities as additional communications from the kidnappers. Agreed and I do think it is makes sense that another location was employed with this crime that would have provided a secure place for those involved to meet during the negotiation process and after the ransom money was obtained.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2019 7:57:35 GMT -5
I was thinking either Hans Mueller or possibly Henry Uhlig, as besides Gerta, Fisch wan't really tight with anyone else there except Richard. Its funny, but when you look at the people in that picture, you can almost divide them up between Fisch and Hauptmann! Henry Uhlig is an interesting possibility. However, I am not sure exactly when Uhlig met Hauptmann. I believe Henry is on record as saying he did not know Hauptmann at the time of the kidnapping. Uhlig and Fisch stopped living together in mid April, 1932; Fisch moved to Selma Kohl's rooming house and Uhlig moved to another apartment nearby on 157th Street. Fisch and Uhlig did remain friends after moving apart. When Uhlig and Hauptmann met though is something that would best be addressed by Michael. Thanks for sharing this!! I did not know anything about him receiving and smoking a pipe while in the Flemington jail. Hauptmann really changed, (in many ways), once he became a solider in the German army.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2019 8:21:20 GMT -5
Should be "Jamaica Avenue" (no "n" at the end.} Thank you for catching that typo!!! It is the first reported cigar purchase done with Lindbergh ransom money. There is a second cigar purchase that was made with a $10.00 gold cert ransom bill reported as part of a deposit from a United Cigar Store department which was located in the Whelan Drug store in NYC. This one is dated 12/22/1932. This is right before Christmas. It is even closer to the New Year's Eve party where we see Hauptmann smoking a cigar. I don't think these purchases should be cast aside as having no value just because the person wasn't identified. That does not exclude them as purchases being made by someone involved in the kidnapping/extortion.
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Post by Michael on Apr 15, 2019 8:25:39 GMT -5
So, Michael, I am thinking that maybe Condon created the statement that the leader "took the symbol maker away" in order to validate the Rice paper notes that he had received that did not have the symbol signature on them?? He did turn them over to the authorities as additional communications from the kidnappers. Wow! You just went an opened up a new can of worms!
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Post by bernardt on Jun 22, 2022 8:16:33 GMT -5
At the Hauptmann's Jan. 1, 1933, New Year's Party, the man sitting in the front row on the right has been identified as Rudolf (or Rudolph) Haase. One member did refer to him as "Willie." I had wondered what the connection Haase might have to the group. A member of the board indicated that Haase was the wine cellar supervisor for the Waldorf Astoria Hotel, but in 1933 Prohibition was still in force, and the Waldorf Astoria did not serve alcohol during Prohibition. Actually the hotel turned their wine cellar into a gym or exercise room. The two photos in which Haase appears were taken in 1933. He also appears in a photo of a picnic held at Hunter's Island, probably taken in the summer of 1932 or 1933. Again, he is in the front row directly to the right. I will try to attach these two photos to the post here. Since Haase would not have been employed at the Waldorf Astoria at the time the photos were taken as prohibition was lifted in December of 1933, he may have been a wine supervisor elsewhere. Fisch and Henkel were acquainted with John Chivacky who was brother and brother-in-law to the owners of the Black Sea Hotel, Jimmie and Anna Donohue. The Black Sea Hotel was famous for selling of liquor during that time, especially to the Yankees baseball players, in particular Babe Ruth. This has been pointed out before on the board, but I was wondering if Haase may have been connected to the Black Sea Hotel during this time. John Chivacky himself is mentioned as "a well-known Garfield hotel owner" in "The Messenger" published in Paterson NJ on Nov. 2, 1978. Chivacky might not have been a hotel owner himself in 1932, but he may well have been connected to the Black Sea Hotel since he lived in Garfield. Henkel and Fisch had arranged the hunting party in Nov. of 1932, as has been mentioned several times, and Henkel and Hauptmann did spend one night at the home of John Chivacky in Garfield. Evidently this was the first (and probably last) meeting of Chivacky and Hauptmann. Haase did attend the Hauptmann New Year's party, though, and I am of the opinion that he was a friend of Henkel and Fisch and not part of the Hauptmann circle. He may well have been connected with the liquor business, however, at that time.
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Post by bernardt on Jun 22, 2022 8:22:11 GMT -5
The first photo above shows the origina Black Sea Hotel in Garfield NJ.The other photos are those of Hauptmann's New Year's Party and the picnic on Hunter's Island. I was wondering if anyone had additional information on Rudolf Haase and his connection to the Hauptmann and Fisch groups.
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Post by Guest on Jun 22, 2022 9:29:28 GMT -5
Like all persons somehow associated with Hauptmann, Haase was questioned after Hauptmann's arrest, not before. He worked in the wine cellar of the Waldorf Astoria in 1934, i.e. after Prohibition had ended.
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Post by bernardt on Jun 22, 2022 11:09:12 GMT -5
That is good to know, but the question posed was how Haase was connected to the Henkel and Hauptmann groups prior to the end of prohibition which occurred in Dec. of 1933. The two photos showing Haase in the group were taken before that time.
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Post by Sue on Jun 22, 2022 16:06:39 GMT -5
See Dark Corners, Volume 3:
Footnote #692 indicates an interview with a Rudolph Hasse of 1380 Sheridan Avenue in the Bronx -- Looks like Ruggiero was the officer who spoke with Hasse (Haase)?
692 Ruggiero, F. J. Det. New Jersey State Police. New Jersey State Police Report. Interview with Rudolph Hasse, 1380 Sheridan Avenue, Bronx, N. Y., re Lindbergh Investigation. September 28 & 29, 1934. New Jersey State Police Museum and Learning Center Archives.
Is this the same guy?
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Post by bernardt on Jun 22, 2022 16:32:40 GMT -5
I'll check this out. The spelling is a little different, but it's probably the same guy. Thanks much, Sue.
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Post by Guest on Jun 22, 2022 20:27:01 GMT -5
Today marks Charlie's 92nd birthday. His youngest known half-sibling is 55 now. Does that much younger half-brother think of his much older half-brother on this day?
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Post by Michael on Jun 22, 2022 20:55:01 GMT -5
I'll check this out. The spelling is a little different, but it's probably the same guy. Thanks much, Sue. Same guy. Ruggiero misspelled the last name. Haase told Breslin that he met Hauptmann on Hunter Island during the summer of 1932. No specifics on Henkel except that he said “ I know Henkel long ago.” An FBI memo claims Haase worked as a Floor Scraper from 1929 to 1933. He was arrested in April 1934 for “felonious assault” but the charges were later dropped.
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Post by bernardt on Jun 23, 2022 5:52:52 GMT -5
Thank you for the information, Michael. I had suspected that he met Hauptmann through Henkel. Hunter's Island must have been a great place to meet new people. So many introductions to Hauptmann were made there! The job of floor scraper is certainly not exciting, but the depression years may have limited Haase's choice of occupation. He may have had some extracurricular activities not mentioned to keep him going. Does one become a steward of a wine cellar without any experience?
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Post by bernardt on Jun 23, 2022 6:28:43 GMT -5
The Black Sea Hotel in Garfield NJ owned by John Chivacky's older sister and brother-in-law (Anna and Jimmie Donahue) is now the Pescador Restaurant located near the Passaic River in Garfield. It was raided several times during prohibition but continued to serve liquor to Yankee baseball players and their fans. Attached is a news article members may find interesting. (Someone had to furnish all that booze the restaurant sold.)
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