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Post by thestonesunturned on Oct 28, 2023 11:11:25 GMT -5
I don't want to monopolize Michael's website. I just want to plagiarize his work on my site and podcast. However, FWIW, I will definitely say at this point of barely scratching the surface of this "case," I can safely assert the following:
1. This was NOT an "isolated" crime that struck this squeaky clean innocent family out of the blue. (Just like, oh, say, the phony kidnapping pf JonBenet. The parallels between these two cases would choke a Hollyweird scriptwriter's horse.) This was Daily Business. For the "victims." For the "lone criminal." For the press. Aaaaalllll kinds of quasi-criminal activity carried on day in, day out, by aaallllllll kinds of quasi-criminals. There is nothing coincidental about Gaston Means "swindling" Evalyn Walsh McLean out of $100,000 "dollars" in direct connection to the media coverage of this phony "kidnapping." These piggies wrestled in the same pig pen (Washington, DC. Maybe you've heard of Vince Foster? Ever wonder just exactly WHICH law "enforcement" agency "investigated" THAT "suicide?" Ever notice that, JUST LIKE in the LKC, no one ever has, and no one ever will, really know what really happened, let alone, who really did it? The funny thing is, the same people keep popping up over and over...Google "Doctor Werner Spitz." Count the number of EXACTLY SIMILAR--that is, bizarrely "unsolvable"--cases HE has been the Arthur Koehler on. When you've picked your jaw up off the floor, consider this additional tidbit [BTW, it's actually spelled, "tit bit," but I only mention it because I'm a retired English professor] he doesn't mention in his press releases: His Jewish parents were the camp doctors at the FIRST concentration camp for JEWS. They immigrated with their son to America. Some people have all the luck...)
2. This was not only Standard Operating Procedure, it was pretty much the first full blown live operation. Everything they had done wrong in their failed attempt to frame the janitor Conley for the 1913 murder of Mary Phagan, they did right THIS TIME. And by they, I mean, specifically, people like, Wild Bill Donovan. People like, former B of I and later William J Burns Agency detectives Gaston Means, Norman Whitaker, JJ McWorth, etc, etc, etc. People like, Colonel Schwarzkopf, who is immediately whisked off to Iran, where he creates the Shah's no-TORious SAVAK secret police. Experts in executing people they've framed. More people also known to be heavily involved in covert and even overt operations to support Germany in WWI. And then again in the 1930s and 40s. And then again in South America in the 50s, 60s...Google "Evelle Younger." Google "Cole Younger." Well, you get the picture. Now, hold it up to the LKC. See? See how a competent investigation is immediately stiffed-arm by higher-ups, to be replaced with Keystone Cops? ASAP? See how there is a masterfully propagated media circus blasting a compelling, titillating, and very false narrative about the crime, the investigation, the victim, and the suspect? WABC Chicago was broadcasting updates about the LKC less than three hours after the Hopewell police were called. Later, handwritten letters will "prove" that a "single" criminal mastermind was involved. When evidence to the contrary is revealed--it's too late. People believe the FIRST version of whatever story they're told. And for decades, investigator after investigator will point out...
3. I have had a hunch ever since my fans first nagged to me to start looking into the LKC that this had something to do with this "SOP." It had spies--everybody on my side of the Interwebs has known for years that Lindy was a Nazi and a spy. Then, I noticed Schwarzkopf's name. Then, I noticed Means's name. Then, I noticed LaMont's name. Etc etc etc. And sure enough, there's the Abwehr and the Etappendienst getting THEIR sauerkraut all over everything. And there is this wacky narrative about an illegal immigrant German carpenter who magically levitates in and out of this fortified nursery...anyhoo, they (Schwarzkopf, Means, Hearst, Hoover, et al) railroad this guy into the electric chair in the single most unbelievable case you'll ever read--until you read Helter Skelter. ZODIAC. The Son of Sam. And you realize you are reading the same story over and over. The Massie Affair. The Assassination of YKW. The Phony Kidnapping of Patty Hearst. The Phony Kidnapping of JonBenet Ramsey. The Phony Kidnapping of Madeleine McCann. The Phony Kidnapping of Frank Sinatra, Jr. The West Memphis Three. Leonard Lake and Charles Ng. Kenneth Bianchi...Well, you get the picture.
$. What was this thread about? Oh. Yeah. The guy way down the coast in Tybee Island in Savannah Harbor. The one who identified both Hauptmann and Mueller as having stayed there for considerable periods in 1932-33. Welpy, FWIW, Savannah, with its strongly bound German immigrant community, was a strongly bound base for the Etappendienst and the Abwehr. What does that prove? Nothing. And if you haven't heard of the Etappendienst, just ask John Hughes Curtis. He'll tell you all about it.
PS I forgot to mention the money laundering. SOP. Son of Sam "victim" Carl Denaro's stepfather was Senior Vice President of Money Laundering at Citibank. His assistant? Carl's first cousin, Frank Denaro. And yes, we're talking about THOSE Denaros. And when we look into the finances of "Manson Family" victim Leno LaBianca, we see that he and his "wife" owed the you-know-who-fia hundreds of thousands of dollars they were supposed to be laundering for the you-know-who-fia. Most of my experience and training was in fraud, forgery, insurance fraud (did you know that, when you murder your spouse for the insurance money, that's also fraud?) and "poison pen" cases. That is NOT Hauptmann's handwriting on the ransom notes, NOR on the JJ Faulkner material. Period. That is, in fact, three distinctly different hands. That's not my point. My point is, I know a money-laundering operation when I see one. And I'm looking rrrrriiiight at Bruno Richard Hauptmann's Plain-Old-Fashioned Money Laundering Service. And by plain, I mean, it's plain as day. Plain as day. And when I look around this "case" to see WHOSE laundry he's fluffing and folding, I see Gaston Means, I see William J Donovan, I see Thomas W LaMont...and when I ask, "How does Hauptmann know these guys," I see an address and phone number on a closet wall listed under the name of a man who managed a lot of real estate for people like Thomas W LaMont and William J Donovan...I see the serial numbers of big bills that are NOT on the list of ransom money. I see...Well, you get the picture. But, that's NOT the picture that was shown to the public and jury. THEY were shown a picture of little Charles Mansson III and a picture of a ladder with a piece missing and a picture of a window Houdini couldn't have levitated in and out of. And the rest is literally History. But, it's not the truth. THAT's Standard Operating Procedure. And so far as I can tell, the LKC is the first full blown deployment.
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Post by A Guest on Oct 29, 2023 10:39:50 GMT -5
$. What was this thread about? Oh. Yeah. The guy way down the coast in Tybee Island in Savannah Harbor. The one who identified both Hauptmann and Mueller as having stayed there for considerable periods in 1932-33. Hans Mueller was never at Tybee Island with Hauptmann. Hauptmann was there in 1931 on the return segment of the California trip he, Anna and Hans Kloppenburg made together in 1931. Hauptmann was not there in 1932. Hauptmann and Anna did make a visit to Florida in 1933 which did include a second stop at Tybee Island. No Hans Mueller or Kloppenburg on this trip. I think the guy who identified Hauptmann was wrong about the presence of Hans Mueller.
PS My point is, I know a money-laundering operation when I see one. And I'm looking rrrrriiiight at Bruno Richard Hauptmann's Plain-Old-Fashioned Money Laundering Service. And by plain, I mean, it's plain as day. Plain as day. And when I look around this "case" to see WHOSE laundry he's fluffing and folding, I see Gaston Means, I see William J Donovan, I see Thomas W LaMont...and when I ask, "How does Hauptmann know these guys," I see an address and phone number on a closet wall listed under the name of a man who managed a lot of real estate for people like Thomas W LaMont and William J Donovan...I see the serial numbers of big bills that are NOT on the list of ransom money. I see...Well, you get the picture. This is your theory. This is the picture you claim to see. I am aware of the serial numbers on Hauptmann's closet door. Do you have anything concrete (as in official reports) to back up your other claims above, that you are basing your theory on?
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Post by thestonesunturned on Oct 29, 2023 19:14:50 GMT -5
How do you know Mueller was never at Tybee Island? "I think the guy was wrong..." Is that it?
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Post by A Guest on Oct 29, 2023 19:53:58 GMT -5
How do you know Mueller was never at Tybee Island? "I think the guy was wrong..." Is that it? What and who is your source that Hans Mueller was at Tybee Island? Please post this information since you are the one claiming he was there.
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Post by thestonesunturned on Nov 1, 2023 7:45:46 GMT -5
In oth3r words, yes. That's it.
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Post by A Guest on Nov 1, 2023 15:50:10 GMT -5
You are the one who claims that Hans Mueller was at Tybee Island. I did not agree. The burden of proof for his presence there lies with YOU. Not me. Where is the source you claim provides this information. Do you actually have one or are you just making it up?
If you have nothing to back up your position, then we are done here.
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Post by Sue on Nov 1, 2023 21:26:42 GMT -5
I don't know if Hans Mueller was ever on Tybee Island, but the Atlanta Constitution for September 27, 1934 says that U.S. District Attorney J. Saxton Daniel says that he was there.
The newspaper states: "numerous persons on the island, a resort near here, have identified positively photographs of Hauptmann, his wife and [his] nephew, Hans Mueller, as the three persons who camped for a week in July or August 1932, on the island."
I don't know what proof he had besides eyewitnesses, but the paper says "Daniel hinted there might be other disclosures."
Also, Police Chief A. L. Hildreth said he, too, had "positive proof."
The Chicago Daily Tribune, September 26, 1934:
"Word came from Savannah, Ga., that Police Chief A. L. Hildreth there positively identified Hauptmann as the man who spent considerable time at Tybee Island, a resort of Savannah, in 1932, soon after the kidnaping, and also in 1933. Chief Hildreth told department of justice agents that Hauptmann, his wife, and her nephew, Hans Mueller, had apparently used the island as a refuge soon after the kidnaping. More than a dozen island residents also identified Hauptmann from photographs as their former neighbor."
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Post by A Guest on Nov 2, 2023 5:29:44 GMT -5
Thanks, Sue for your help with this. Great research!! Hauptmann, Anna and Hans Kloppenburg were at Tybee Island in 1931 not 1932. Anna was in Germany in July and August of 1932. I have nothing on Hans Mueller being at Tybee Island in 1931, 1932 or 1933. Anna and Richard did make a short stop at Tybee Island during their return trip from Florida in 1933. Just the two of them. I think there are errors in the dates and the Hans who is being identified by the locals in 1934. Hans Mueller's name was all over the papers in September of 1934 so I think that is how he came to be the "Hans" who was with Richard and Anna. Hans Mueller still remains a person of interest for me in this kidnapping case.
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Post by thestonesunturned on Nov 2, 2023 8:24:59 GMT -5
So, any evidence you don't like is an "error." Got it. That's a huge help.
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Post by thestonesunturned on Nov 2, 2023 8:57:21 GMT -5
"A hedge against inflation..." As in, the FDR plan to destroy the dollar by pegging it to gold at $35.00 per ounce? How did Hauptmann know that was coming? I ask, because, supposably, JP Morgan stuffed the ransom bag with gold certificates because they knew gold certificates would soon be taken out of circulation. They knew this before FDR was even elected? Maybe. Assuming such plans had been in the air for some time. I can see THEM (JP Morgan) hoarding gold certificates. But, how would Bruno know this?
Just how much money DID The Colonel lose in 1929? I ask, because, JP Morgan were caught shielding top clients from losses sustained in the crash. That's not easy. Even in the days before FDR's SEC, trades must be accounted for. So, in order for a VIP client, like, oh, your (JP Morgan senior partner Dwight Morrow) son-in-law for example, to be reimbursed, then his sale of say, 10,000 shares of oh, say, Transworld Air Transport Company, that he panic-sold at say, 75 cents a share in the crash, would have to be retroactively "sold" at that price to a sucker, and the son in law's shares would have to be bought by a front, a dummy, a stooge, at a higher price. Which is exactly what JP Morgan had done for several very VIP clients. And the Hauptmanns were pretty clearly stooging for somebody. They weren't the only ones, either.
If--IF--someone, say, the son in law of a senior partner at JP Morgan, a banking house that would know about--and probably advised on--the crash devaluation of the dollar by a president who hasn't even been "elected" yet, wanted to be in a position to cash in on said devaluation, then, said son in law would need to be in possession of gold or gold certificates. Now, he COULD just buy them...
But, did you know that ransom money is tax-deductible? The Colonel knew aaaalllll about the income tax. He was involved in a $500,000 (at $20 per ounce, that's 25,000 ounces of gold. At today's prices, near $2000 per ounce, that's 50 million "dollars") income tax dodge involving Transworld Air Transport stock and bonuses. IF said son in law somehow came into the possession of oh, say, $40,000 worth of gold certificates BEFORE the devaluation, and cashed them in for gold...let's see...at $20...that's 2000 ounces of gold. At $35, that's $70,000. Uh, how much was the second ransom demand for? Never mind. 2000 ounces of gold at today's prices would be about $4,000,000 in today's "money."
Not enough to retire on. But, if you're ALSO being secretly reimbursed by your father in law's firm...
I've seen a loooooooooooooot of this kind of thing. And I'm looking at it, now.
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Post by Michael on Nov 2, 2023 10:35:23 GMT -5
So, any evidence you don't like is an "error." Got it. That's a huge help. I looked into this years ago and here is what I remember off the top of my head.... Once Hauptmann was arrested, people who remembered him on Tybee Beach started talking about the fact he had visited there. The Press swarmed beginning with, I think, the Savanna Evening Press. Several people gave the story about how Anna and Hauptmann had visited twice, one time with another person named "Hans" but his last name was never mentioned. One reporter remembered that Hauptmann's "nephew" was named "Hans" and came back with an AP photo of Hans Mueller being escorted to DA Foley's office for questioning. They immediately identified him and the account snowballed among all concerned, to include local law enforcement, into a rock solid "fact." So, by the time the FBI sent a field agent over, they were already referring to this man as Hauptmann's cousin or nephew. So, the FBI reports that several people recalled a campfire with Hauptmann and Hans singing and playing the mandolin. Things we all absolutely know Kloppenburg did. We also know from Police investigation and interviews that it was Kloppenburg who was with them at Tybee Beach and I've never seen any information whatsoever that Hauptmann, Anna, and Mueller went there at a different time. So if Kloppenburg was there, why didn't they remember him? The logical conclusion is they misidentified Mueller as Kloppenburg because of how everything was presented at the time the picture was shown. I've never seen anything to show a picture of Kloppenburg was offered for identification. Anyway, I'm not telling anyone not to check into this further, but from my perspective, it would be a waste of time. Overall though, there is a lesson to be learned by this example.
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Post by thestonesunturned on Nov 2, 2023 15:32:50 GMT -5
Oooooooooohhhhh! I see. That is a horse of a different feather. Thanks. Very helpful, indeed...
...One now wonders if maybe--just maybe--RUMORS about Mueller were deliberately PLANTED...by whom? For whom? For what? I didn't even care about any "Hans This" or "Hans That" being there. I was merely struck by the coincidence of Bruno ever being there. Tybee Island was a tempting potential dropping off/picking up point for the Abwehr/Etappendienst/SD from submarines, dinghies, etc. They were very active in and around Savannah in both World Wars. So, that tells us they more or less successfully--and ACTIVELY--kept up the network BETWEEN the wars (you would not believe the number of German Jewish immigrants who spied for the Kaiser. And in the next war, the SD and the Abwehr could approach these families and make thinly veiled suggestions of "I could possibly delay the deportation of your sister's family IF I could give my superiors a COMPELLING reason..." You don't want to know.)
And we have aaaallll these OTHER people associated with those German Intel agencies who keep bobbing up over and over again in this "case." One, would be a fluke. Two, that's a coincidence of flukes. Three, four, five, six...not to mention Herr Lindbergh himself. Das Colonel. You know his white nationalist, pro-Kaiser Vater was the illegitimate son of a bank-embezzling illegal immigrant from Sweden, right? The other Switzerland? "Neutral" country? More banks than beer cellars? Know what I mean? And his Vater in law, the JP Morgan capitalist banker with the Jacobite nose...you remember..US Ambassador to Mexico during the nth Revolucion...kissed all the Guggenheims on the lips...hired a member of the Purple Gang to nurse his grandson...died in the arms of his tippling chauffeur right after he changed his will...
Say! That reminds me. Ever READ that will? Read it. Then, think about what happens to a LOT of that money if Little Lindy lives. Think about what happens to it if he DOESN'T live...
PS Uh...who is Hans Klopperman?
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Post by Sue on Nov 3, 2023 11:17:17 GMT -5
Hi A Guest,
You, too, work very hard with this research!
I am curious to know why you find Hans Mueller to be a person of interest in this case.
I've seen only a few pictures of Mueller, and have never really concentrated on him.
Was it Mueller's mother-in-law that lived close to St. Raymond's Cemetery?
Previously posted, one of the Lindbergh baby claimants was looking for a Mueller relative in the early 1960s.
Under the Announcements section of The New York Post for October 23, 1962 there is a public notice that says the following:
WANTING to know the whereabouts of Miss or Mrs. Maria Mueller, niece of Mrs. Anna Hauptman, or any person knowing address of Mrs. Anna Hauptman, some place in the State of Penn. Both used to live in Bronx in 1932. Reward. Kenneth W. [Kerion], PO Box 461. Creedmoor, N.C.
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Post by thestonesunturned on Nov 3, 2023 11:21:28 GMT -5
It's like that whooooooole who heard what from Mueller, who owes who money, who passed what gun around to whom, shigamabob. Member that? That sounds so much like the testimony in the whooooooooole Gary Hindman/Bobby Beausoleil shigamabob. Like, whoever presented that horsehockey in court was accidentally reading the transcript from the whooooole phony Lindbergh Baby Kidnapping shigamabob, instead of whatever shigamabob they were supposed to reading at Bobby's trial shigamabob. Like, it's THAT similar.
Like the way this whole phony child-napping/real child murder "case" is soooooooo similar to the whole JonBenet phony child-napping/real child murder "case." I mean, not only do you have SIX members of some immigrant "foreign faction" magically levitating ghost-like through unsecured/broken window, but, you even have a SUITCASE under said window. And maybe, maybe not footprints. Phony ransom notes left in very, very suspicious places. "Confusion" over what the child was wearing when put to bed. Child is already dead before the parents find the phony "ransom" note. Titillating mass media campaign to confuse everybody. Incompetent/outclassed law "enforcement" agency runs the "case." CIA, KGB, MOSSAD, Vatican Intelligence, UNCLE, SMERSH, ODESSA, OSS, swarming all over the place like flies on gold certificates. Not to mention aerial recon SPECIFICALLY. It's like they're using a playbook. "False Flag/Crime Hoax Ops for Dummy Corporations."
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Post by A Guest on Nov 3, 2023 23:07:43 GMT -5
Hi A Guest, You, too, work very hard with this research! Hi Sue. Thank you but I do more reading now than research about this case. You, however, are one of the Lindbergh Case icons. So many years spent researching and discussing this case have made you just that! I watched your interview with Ronelle on her youtube channel. I really enjoyed it. I am curious to know why you find Hans Mueller to be a person of interest in this case. I, personally, have always thought that Hauptmann had an accomplice in this crime. I feel it would have been someone Hauptman knew he could absolutely trust. Hauptmann had known Hans since 1928. Mueller also married into the family when he married Anna Hauptmann's niece, Maria Dieterle, in 1929. They were all very close. If Hauptmann wanted an accomplice, then I see Mueller as possibly being that person. Michael's Dark Corners V2 Chapter Six really influenced me also. He reveals a side of Mueller's character that could have lent him to being the type of person who could get involved in a crime. There is also the handwriting of Hans that I consider. Hans made his "x" the same way it appears in the ransom notes. Also, in Hans's notebook, you will find that he wrote "the" as "hte" just as in the ransom notes. Then there is the illegal Lilliput gun Mueller helped Hauptmann to acquire. These are some of the things that keep Hans Mueller a person of interest for me.I've seen only a few pictures of Mueller, and have never really concentrated on him. Was it Mueller's mother-in-law that lived close to St. Raymond's Cemetery? No, it was not. Maria's parents lived in Germany. Maria's mother was Anna Hauptmann's oldest sister. That being said, my understanding is that Dr. Condon had relatives who lived on a street that was across from St. Raymond's cemetery at the time of the kidnapping. For what it's worth, Condon claimed in his book, Jafsie Tells All, that Hauptmann had a close relative living near St. Raymond's cemetery. I have not been able to confirm this.Previously posted, one of the Lindbergh baby claimants was looking for a Mueller relative in the early 1960s. Under the Announcements section of The New York Post for October 23, 1962 there is a public notice that says the following: WANTING to know the whereabouts of Miss or Mrs. Maria Mueller, niece of Mrs. Anna Hauptman, or any person knowing address of Mrs. Anna Hauptman, some place in the State of Penn. Both used to live in Bronx in 1932. Reward. Kenneth W. [Kerion], PO Box 461. Creedmoor, N.C. Such an interesting find, Sue! What I can tell you is that in 1962 Hans and Maria Mueller were living in Groton, Connecticut. After Hans and Maria's daughter, Ruth, married Verne Hilt in 1957 in New York City, employment would have Verne and Ruth living in Groton, Connecticut. Hans and Maria Mueller would soon move there also. While living in Groton, Hans Mueller would finally become a naturalized citizen in 1962. There would later be another employment move, this time to Mobile, Alabama by Verne and Ruth and Hans and Maria would join them there also. Hans and Maria would live the remainder of their lives in Mobile, Alabama.
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Joe
Lt. Colonel
Posts: 2,652
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Post by Joe on Nov 4, 2023 9:58:51 GMT -5
Hi A Guest, You, too, work very hard with this research! Hi Sue. Thank you but I do more reading now than research about this case. You, however, are one of the Lindbergh Case icons. So many years spent researching and discussing this case have made you just that! I watched your interview with Ronelle on her youtube channel. I really enjoyed it. I am curious to know why you find Hans Mueller to be a person of interest in this case. I, personally, have always thought that Hauptmann had an accomplice in this crime. I feel it would have been someone Hauptman knew he could absolutely trust. Hauptmann had known Hans since 1928. Mueller also married into the family when he married Anna Hauptmann's niece, Maria Dieterle, in 1929. They were all very close. If Hauptmann wanted an accomplice, then I see Mueller as possibly being that person. Michael's Dark Corners V2 Chapter Six really influenced me also. He reveals a side of Mueller's character that could have lent him to being the type of person who could get involved in a crime. There is also the handwriting of Hans that I consider. Hans made his "x" the same way it appears in the ransom notes. Also, in Hans's notebook, you will find that he wrote "the" as "hte" just as in the ransom notes. Then there is the illegal Lilliput gun Mueller helped Hauptmann to acquire. These are some of the things that keep Hans Mueller a person of interest for me.I've seen only a few pictures of Mueller, and have never really concentrated on him. Was it Mueller's mother-in-law that lived close to St. Raymond's Cemetery? No, it was not. Maria's parents lived in Germany. Maria's mother was Anna Hauptmann's oldest sister. That being said, my understanding is that Dr. Condon had relatives who lived on a street that was across from St. Raymond's cemetery at the time of the kidnapping. For what it's worth, Condon claimed in his book, Jafsie Tells All, that Hauptmann had a close relative living near St. Raymond's cemetery. I have not been able to confirm this.Previously posted, one of the Lindbergh baby claimants was looking for a Mueller relative in the early 1960s. Under the Announcements section of The New York Post for October 23, 1962 there is a public notice that says the following: WANTING to know the whereabouts of Miss or Mrs. Maria Mueller, niece of Mrs. Anna Hauptman, or any person knowing address of Mrs. Anna Hauptman, some place in the State of Penn. Both used to live in Bronx in 1932. Reward. Kenneth W. [Kerion], PO Box 461. Creedmoor, N.C. Such an interesting find, Sue! What I can tell you is that in 1962 Hans and Maria Mueller were living in Groton, Connecticut. After Hans and Maria's daughter, Ruth, married Verne Hilt in 1957 in New York City, employment would have Verne and Ruth living in Groton, Connecticut. Hans and Maria Mueller would soon move there also. While living in Groton, Hans Mueller would finally become a naturalized citizen in 1962. There would later be another employment move, this time to Mobile, Alabama by Verne and Ruth and Hans and Maria would join them there also. Hans and Maria would live the remainder of their lives in Mobile, Alabama. I’ve never had much difficulty in believing that Hans Mueller could, and would have played a criminal role in this case, at least within the role of accomplice to the ransom negotiations at Woodlawn Cemetery on March 12, 1932, and possibly within the kidnapping itself. While he does appear to have an alibi though for the night of April 2, having just started a 7:00 pm to 7:00 am position at the York Bar and Grill on March 27th or 30th, I have no further information that his claim he did not receive a day (night) off until April 11 from the time he started, was ever confirmed though. St. Raymond’s Cemetery and the area of East 86th Street where the York Bar and Grill would have been located, are about 7 miles apart. Still, I have to wonder if Hans may have somehow arranged to deke out for a few hours on the evening of the ransom payment, especially if he had been able to get a ride with CJ, whom I believe was his Uncle Richard.
Hauptmann grew up in Germany with a familiarity for both the Kurrenschrift alphabet, as well as the one that eventually superseded it, the Sutterlin alphabet. Both have a similar representation of the capital letter “X” and I believe it’s this basic styling that was the impetus for it’s use as the small letter “x” within spellings in the ransom notes, as well as Hauptmann and others within his social circle. The initial and final strokes for the German capital letter “X,’ lend themselves nicely to their inclusion ‘mid-word’ without breaking the flow of the cursive. I suspect this use of the capital “X’ as seen in the ransom notes, as well as writing exemplars of other individuals know to Hauptmann represents a kind of ‘regional effect’ with others who may have had the opportunity to compare cursive styles. I also consider the possibility that while the ransom note writer may have used this ‘double “e” “x”’ almost sub-consciously at times within the ransom notes, he may also have wanted to impress the fact the letter was not to be confused with the German small letter “x,” which looks very much like the English small letter “e.” In effect, by 'doubling' the "e" appearance, there is little question the intended letter is meant to be "x."
I do regard the comparison of the ‘double “e” “x”’ within the ransom notes and the “x” in “Bronx” from Hauptmann’s 1932 license application, very compelling among many other such handwriting comparison examples, towards him having been the true author of the ransom notes.
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Post by stella7 on Nov 4, 2023 11:33:17 GMT -5
Joe, could you post the license application here, if you have it? I remember being struck by how much the overall writing style resembled the first ransom note.
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Post by Sue on Nov 4, 2023 14:10:42 GMT -5
Hi A Guest,
Thank you for such sweet compliments, but I am like a lot of people here who can't shake the LKC from their mind!
I'm glad you like the video! I can't believe I finally did it because I pretty much shy away from such things! Anyway, thank you!
You certainly know plenty about Hans Mueller! Sometimes, all of a sudden, I will get more interested in a character in this case! Hans Mueller has started to get my attention!
I may be repeating what has already been said, but isn't John another name for Hans in the the German language?
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Post by A Guest on Nov 4, 2023 20:17:53 GMT -5
I’ve never had much difficulty in believing that Hans Mueller could, and would have played a criminal role in this case, at least within the role of accomplice to the ransom negotiations at Woodlawn Cemetery on March 12, 1932, and possibly within the kidnapping itself. While he does appear to have an alibi though for the night of April 2, having just started a 7:00 pm to 7:00 am position at the York Bar and Grill on March 27th or 30th, I have no further information that his claim he did not receive a day (night) off until April 11 from the time he started, was ever confirmed though. St. Raymond’s Cemetery and the area of East 86th Street where the York Bar and Grill would have been located, are about 7 miles apart. Still, I have to wonder if Hans may have somehow arranged to deke out for a few hours on the evening of the ransom payment, especially if he had been able to get a ride with CJ, whom I believe was his Uncle Richard.I checked my copy of Hans Mueller's questioning by authorities in 1934. I feel that Hans would not have been able to be at the ransom payment the evening of April 2, 1932. I also don't think he needed to be there, especially if his Uncle was the one receiving the money.Hauptmann grew up in Germany with a familiarity for both the Kurrenschrift alphabet, as well as the one that eventually superseded it, the Sutterlin alphabet. Both have a similar representation of the capital letter “X” and I believe it’s this basic styling that was the impetus for it’s use as the small letter “x” within spellings in the ransom notes, as well as Hauptmann and others within his social circle. The initial and final strokes for the German capital letter “X,’ lend themselves nicely to their inclusion ‘mid-word’ without breaking the flow of the cursive. I suspect this use of the capital “X’ as seen in the ransom notes, as well as writing exemplars of other individuals know to Hauptmann represents a kind of ‘regional effect’ with others who may have had the opportunity to compare cursive styles. I also consider the possibility that while the ransom note writer may have used this ‘double “e” “x”’ almost sub-consciously at times within the ransom notes, he may also have wanted to impress the fact the letter was not to be confused with the German small letter “x,” which looks very much like the English small letter “e.” In effect, by 'doubling' the "e" appearance, there is little question the intended letter is meant to be "x."
Thanks so much for sharing this information about the German alphabet. So that means all German educated children learned to make the letter "x" this way?I do regard the comparison of the ‘double “e” “x”’ within the ransom notes and the “x” in “Bronx” from Hauptmann’s 1932 license application, very compelling among many other such handwriting comparison examples, towards him having been the true author of the ransom notes.
Agree that it is compelling, but it is not exclusive to just Hauptmann since the same "x" can be found written by Mueller who was also German taught. This is just where I am at right now.
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Post by A Guest on Nov 4, 2023 20:31:15 GMT -5
Hi A Guest, Thank you for such sweet compliments, but I am like a lot of people here who can't shake the LKC from their mind! I'm glad you like the video! I can't believe I finally did it because I pretty much shy away from such things! Anyway, thank you! You are most welcome. You certainly know plenty about Hans Mueller! Sometimes, all of a sudden, I will get more interested in a character in this case! Hans Mueller has started to get my attention! I am glad he has your attention. I will certainly be interested in anything you might find.I may be repeating what has already been said, but isn't John another name for Hans in the the German language? This is a great thought you had. I think you are correct in this. I checked up on my name origin site and learned that Hans is the German short form for Johannes, which would be John in English. Hmmm. Condon said that CJ wanted to be called John. CJ was not an American though, but was using the English form of the name instead of his own?? Interesting for sure. Thanks, Sue.
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Nov 5, 2023 9:18:56 GMT -5
I’ve never had much difficulty in believing that Hans Mueller could, and would have played a criminal role in this case, at least within the role of accomplice to the ransom negotiations at Woodlawn Cemetery on March 12, 1932, and possibly within the kidnapping itself. While he does appear to have an alibi though for the night of April 2, having just started a 7:00 pm to 7:00 am position at the York Bar and Grill on March 27th or 30th, I have no further information that his claim he did not receive a day (night) off until April 11 from the time he started, was ever confirmed though. St. Raymond’s Cemetery and the area of East 86th Street where the York Bar and Grill would have been located, are about 7 miles apart. Still, I have to wonder if Hans may have somehow arranged to deke out for a few hours on the evening of the ransom payment, especially if he had been able to get a ride with CJ, whom I believe was his Uncle Richard.I checked my copy of Hans Mueller's questioning by authorities in 1934. I feel that Hans would not have been able to be at the ransom payment the evening of April 2, 1932. I also don't think he needed to be there, especially if his Uncle was the one receiving the money. (Guest) I wouldn’t say it was Mueller playing the role of lookout at St. Raymond’s on the night of April 2, 1932, or not. I remain open to this possibility though, given his seemingly close relationship, apparent trust and past association with Hauptmann, his almost destitute financial state at the time and his selling the Liliput pistol to his uncle sometime around 1928. Mueller was also an illegal alien and seemed no stranger to shady business dealings. Although he appears to be relatively forthcoming in stating that ‘the bosses’ would be able to provide details around the place of work he had just started at, a few select hours of being covered by someone else during a specific date and time window, would not have constituted his first 'day off.’ Transcripts of questioning are relatively one dimensional and speak very little about the comfort or stress level of the individual or beyond that, their ability or inability to look an interrogator directly in the eye with the intention of hiding the truth or diverting the questioning process, something his dear uncle was so adept at doing. At the end of the day though, it’s just not a conclusive call one way or the other.
Why do you feel Mueller would not have had to be there, assuming the availability of a ‘lookout’ was part of ransom payment plan?
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Nov 5, 2023 9:27:38 GMT -5
Hauptmann grew up in Germany with a familiarity for both the Kurrenschrift alphabet, as well as the one that eventually superseded it, the Sutterlin alphabet. Both have a similar representation of the capital letter “X” and I believe it’s this basic styling that was the impetus for it’s use as the small letter “x” within spellings in the ransom notes, as well as Hauptmann and others within his social circle. The initial and final strokes for the German capital letter “X,’ lend themselves nicely to their inclusion ‘mid-word’ without breaking the flow of the cursive. I suspect this use of the capital “X’ as seen in the ransom notes, as well as writing exemplars of other individuals know to Hauptmann represents a kind of ‘regional effect’ with others who may have had the opportunity to compare cursive styles. I also consider the possibility that while the ransom note writer may have used this ‘double “e” “x”’ almost sub-consciously at times within the ransom notes, he may also have wanted to impress the fact the letter was not to be confused with the German small letter “x,” which looks very much like the English small letter “e.” In effect, by 'doubling' the "e" appearance, there is little question the intended letter is meant to be "x."
Thanks so much for sharing this information about the German alphabet. So that means all German educated children learned to make the letter "x" this way? (Guest)They would have learned to make both capital and small letter forms of the German “X.” Whether they decided to transpose either form in the course of personal writing, I suppose would have been their choice for whatever reason they had. Clearly, there were a few people in or close to Hauptmann’s social circle who wrote this variation of the letter “x” and I can’t help but think it was probably a pretty common trait within German language spelling at large, due to the ease of incorporating the capital “X” form within the body of a word, without breaking the cursive flow.
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Nov 5, 2023 9:45:48 GMT -5
I do regard the comparison of the ‘double “e” “x”’ within the ransom notes and the “x” in “Bronx” from Hauptmann’s 1932 license application, very compelling among many other such handwriting comparison examples, towards him having been the true author of the ransom notes.
Agree that it is compelling, but it is not exclusive to just Hauptmann since the same "x" can be found written by Mueller who was also German taught. This is just where I am at right now. (Guest)I believe it's clear that the handwriting of Hauptmann and the ransom note writer bear remarkable similarities not only in the form of letters used in words, eg. the 'double "e" "x"', but also within identical styles of penmanship, similarity of dynamics within the individual formation of letters and their joining which can be seen through fountain pen ink flowback, the apparent hand pressure used, and all of the characteristics observed and documented by a lot of Questioned Document Examiners through the years. If you threw a single Uhlig or Mueller 'double "e" "x"' into one of the ransom note words, it might pass unnoticed. But Uhlig and Mueller didn't write like the ransom note writer, so of course they would have quickly been eliminated from suspicion, after meeting the minimum length of writing required by the QDE. Hauptmann did write like the ransom note writer. A LOT.
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Post by A Guest on Nov 5, 2023 10:39:10 GMT -5
Like I said before, if his Uncle Richard is the one receiving the money, Hans doesn't need to be there for that. That said, Hans would not have needed to have a day off in order for the ransom/note exchange to happen. Hans had just started shift work at the York Bar and Grill at the end of March 1932 when they opened to the public. He worked the 7 p.m. to 7 a.m shift for the first 10 to 14 days they were open. Working that shift, Hans most likely would not have had his dinner break early enough in the evening to be at the ransom/note exchange, in my opinion.
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Post by A Guest on Nov 5, 2023 11:06:18 GMT -5
It's that commonality of the making of that "x" form that resonates with me. It isn't exclusive to just Hauptmann or even Mueller. They both wrote it that way. Even more interesting is the transposing of the letters in the word "the" to "hte" in those ransom notes. This is another trait that is common to both Mueller and Hauptmann, so that also keeps Hans a person of interest for me. That trait is not something they taught in writing class.
What would have really been helpful with this would have been the authorities having Mueller give writing samples like they did so many others they questioned. Kloppenburg had to do this. To my knowledge, this was not done with Mueller's handwriting in order to eliminate his involvement with this crime.
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Nov 5, 2023 12:52:11 GMT -5
Like I said before, if his Uncle Richard is the one receiving the money, Hans doesn't need to be there for that. That said, Hans would not have needed to have a day off in order for the ransom/note exchange to happen. Hans had just started shift work at the York Bar and Grill at the end of March 1932 when they opened to the public. He worked the 7 p.m. to 7 a.m shift for the first 10 to 14 days they were open. Working that shift, Hans most likely would not have had his dinner break early enough in the evening to be at the ransom/note exchange, in my opinion. I have never considered Hans Muller as being CJ, if that's what you mean. Only as the perceived 'lookout' and/or possibly an associate to the kidnapper on the night of the kidnapping. Do you have any candidates for the man/men believed to have been a lookout(s) at Woodlawn and St. Raymond's?
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Nov 5, 2023 13:24:32 GMT -5
It's that commonality of the making of that "x" form that resonates with me. It isn't exclusive to just Hauptmann or even Mueller. They both wrote it that way. Even more interesting is the transposing of the letters in the word "the" to "hte" in those ransom notes. This is another trait that is common to both Mueller and Hauptmann, so that also keeps Hans a person of interest for me. That trait is not something they taught in writing class. What would have really been helpful with this would have been the authorities having Mueller give writing samples like they did so many others they questioned. Kloppenburg had to do this. To my knowledge, this was not done with Mueller's handwriting in order to eliminate his involvement with this crime. I know investigators did confiscate some samples of Mueller's acknowledged writings, but I think his physical appearance and especially facial characteristics probably precluded him from any possibility of having been considered as a candidate for CJ. He seems to have escaped the third degree in general and I have to wonder how much of that would have been due to Hauptmann having quickly gained the role of lone wolf within the official investigation. He's definitely one of the key people whose unadulterated truth I would love to know.
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Post by A Guest on Nov 6, 2023 20:36:48 GMT -5
Sorry it has taken me so long to get back to you. I haven't had a chance to get back to the board until tonight.
Hans Mueller as CJ? Not really. If I am remembering correctly, Hans stood 6 foot tall. That alone disqualifies him. Condon was saying CJ was 5' 9" tall.
So, I took some time late last night to review some of the early statements, etc. of Condon about the meeting night of March 12, 1932. I looked at Vigil (April 7th, 1932) and Condon's May 13th and May 14 1932 statements. In all three of those documents Condon never mentions a lookout at Woodlawn cemetery. Just a man waving a handkerchief through the gate. What to do?
I went to Al Reich's May 13th 1932 statement and he said the following:
"The note directed us to cross the street and follow the cemetery up to 233rd Street, where I again parked the car. The Doctor got out and walked around in the middle of the triangle which is at that point for about 10 to 15 minutes. Seeing no one he came back to the car and sat talking to me, wondering if they were coming. Then a fellow came walking down what would be the sidewalk in our direction, and the Doctor again when he saw him coming took his position in the triangle in front of the cemetery gate. This fellow continued walking down the sidewalk along the cemetery in a southerly direction. Pretty soon a man appeared inside the cemetery at the gate waving a handkerchief to attract the Doctor's attention and the Doctor went over and spoke to him through the gate."
A fellow. Not much of a description to base any guess on about identity. Do you have any thoughts on why Condon did not mention this fellow in his statements and his Vigil account? Reich makes it clear Condon was aware of him.
So, I went right to Michael's Dark Corners V2 book, chapter 2 which is about the Woodlawn Cemetery meeting. On pages 46 and 47, Michael has Condon giving a detailed description of this "fellow". I was so surprised. I checked Michael's footnote for this description and it is from a report by Special Agent T. H. Sisk dated June 26, 1934. That is almost two years later!
Michael, did this fellow mentioned by Al Reich in 1932, take Condon two years to describe? Was he never asked about this for two years?
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Post by A Guest on Nov 6, 2023 20:45:01 GMT -5
The investigators did confiscate items that belonged to Hans Mueller. That is how I saw Mueller's handwriting in a notebook of his. The "hte" transposing is in there. If I saw it, the authorities must have to.
I think you may be right that investigators might have chosen to not look too heavily at Mueller because they weren't really looking for any accomplices, just at Hauptmann.
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Post by thestonesunturned on Nov 8, 2023 17:15:38 GMT -5
But, it's almost cartoonishly OBVIOUS that they're framing/railroading Hauptmann. Like, it's ALL a big show. And seriously, you see the exact same thing in future cases that also turn out to involve many of the same people. And again, the Wolfie Shickelgruber Fan Club of America went around for years shrieking that Hauptmann was being framed by "The Jews." And here's all these America Firsticshe Friends of Wolfie running around blatantly framing Bruno for a crime he merely profited from. Knowingly, or unknowingly.
I mean, I'm an expert on poison pen and forgery cases. I can hang Jafsie with those letters quicker than I can hang Hauptmann for farting in church. But only a lunatic would believe that Jafsie could have levitated in and out of that window with a 30 pound child in a gunny sack. Okay, so I take the easy way out and frame Jafsie for playing switcheroosies with the ransom notes, pocketing the real ones for future use, and substituting his own forgeries. Of course, he'd need to launder that money...and he'd need an opportunity to study the "real" handwriting. Which he got when he personally received an instantaneous, direct answer to his ludicrously coincidental letter in the Bronx Home News.
See what I mean? All these equally plausible insanities are not the result of people obsessing over "meaningless" coincidences. They were SCRIPTED IN ADVANCE.
Was Jafsie a master forger? Couldn't say. Was he con artist? Could say. You know who WAS (supposably) a "master forger?" Gaston Bullock Means. Too bad his name didn't pop up somewhere in this case, possibly in connection to some switcherooed gold certificates...
Where was I? Oh, yeah. Google "Murder of Mary Phagan." You'll notice a few names popping up...the same crew who bungled the attempt to frame the janitor Conley (I mean, this was the South in 1913...how futzing hard could it be to frame a black guy for raping a murdering a 13-year old white girl? Yet, here we are...) slime out from under the rocks in New Jersey, 1932. Forget the phony "confession" notes that play a HUGE role in the Phagan case. The phony "evidence" against Conley (his confession is bizarre enough) clumsily planted by you-know-who. Just look at the Christmas list of "private detectives" involved in the frame ups. Not to mention a library full of conspiracy books published by B'Nai Brith (Leo Frank was a card-carrying member. I only bring it up, because of said Schickelgruber admirers sauerkrauting up the LKC) still trying to clear Leo Frank's name. Well, now look at the Christmas list of characters in THIS farce.
It's like they sat down and had a brainstorming session. "What we did we do wrong? What should we do next time?" And so on. And in 1932 this rejected Dick Tracy story line gets acted out on the global media stage. By the same players. And it's as fake as the "kidnapping" of JonBenet. I mean, it's as fake as the "kidnapping" of Madeleine McCann. I mean, it's as fake as the "kidnapping" of Frank Sinatra, Jr.
Did our laundry boy Bruno and his little Pfannkuchen Frau ever join any of those WHITE collar social climber klatsches? The Elks? The Moose? Friends of the New Germany?
And when I say, "Scripted in advance," I mean, there are no dates on those "ransom" notes.
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