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Post by rick3 rookie pi on Apr 19, 2006 2:51:24 GMT -5
Well, its all rather puzzling when it comes to the chisel? The chisel is of little or no use for assembling or disassembling the 3 part ladder. Due to the whole warped shutter phenom, coupled with the lack of chisel marks on the windows, suggests that it also wasnt used up there. The lack of blood or fingerprints (?) suggests its not the murder weapon. So why bring it along anyways--to frame a carpenter? And why leave it? By accident? If it is in your tool belt (?) or pocket then just take it with you. Carpenters in general, do not associate "tool use" with "wet ground"? I say its a plant to misdirect or mislead.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Apr 19, 2006 7:29:24 GMT -5
I have been trying to be as fair as possible here regarding my suspicion of the chisel. Suffice to say I think most people would consider it Hauptmann's by virtue of circumstance. Why is it there and left behind, who knows? You know criminals have left stranger and more incriminating evidence behind. I don't think it is too much of a stretch to imagine a carpenter/kidnapper carrying along some extra tools and losing one under the circumstances. Of course if you choose to look at it as an individual and isolated piece of evidence then I don't think you could say it belongs to Hauptmann , on the other hand you couldn't say it doesn't as well.
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Post by rick3clue pi on Apr 19, 2006 19:41:53 GMT -5
Too bad it wasnt a monkey wrench or a candle stick? Then we would be getting somewhere?
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Apr 20, 2006 12:59:56 GMT -5
I guess that would depend on whether getting somewhere is the objective, sometimes I am not so sure it is.
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Post by Michael on Apr 20, 2006 20:23:46 GMT -5
I believe if it comes down to more then one person involved then the amount of items which could have been brought there could be more then we think. However, I assume that whatever they brought would have held some sort of value or potential value. Since I am not a carpenter then I watch closely the opinions of Kevin and others who posses these skills and experiences.
I think we need to come up with a potential use for this particular tool and why anyone who was there to perpetrate the crime would bring it along.
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Post by rick3american PI on Apr 21, 2006 7:43:43 GMT -5
Well, it would never occur to me personally to bring a chisel to a kidnap. I would bring an electric screwdriver, some pliars, tape, glass cutter, and a pen knife or putty knife with a thin blade that fits between the joints of the window and shutters to flip the locks or bolts. The chisel would indicate either you dont have any proper tools to bring, or you forgot the right ones and just had a "wood chisel" in your glovebox. Maybe someone surmised that its good to have tools around the crimescene and then leave them there. Especially "Carpenter Tools" It could also be considered a weapon to back up the pistolla. Also, maybe if there was time left over that warped shutter could be trimmed down a touch? I hope they fingerprinted the shutter hanger?
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Apr 21, 2006 7:47:59 GMT -5
A 3/4" chisel is the "workhorse" of a carpenter's hand tool inventory, that why the exclusion of such from the tools found at Hauptmann's arrest was so significant. It would not be hard to believe that it was carried along for good measure that night. It would have been useful on some locks, such as found on the french windows.
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Mr Green chisel in the nursery
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Post by Mr Green chisel in the nursery on Apr 21, 2006 9:06:08 GMT -5
As Kevin has stated: there are many potentially excellent uses for a 3/4 chisel at a crime scene....to pry up a window or shutter thats stuck would be better than a screwdriver. Broader blade and sharper. But to be useful in this regard the climber would take it up to the top of the ladder and then take it back out to the downed ladder and leave it. But "throwing it down"--(Woops wrong term) seems all wrong? Exactly how many hands did this Lone Wolfe have anywasy....I think we have lost count? Does he "set Charlie down" in the mud whilst he retrives the 2 sections of the ladder. There must have beens 1000s of footprints in the mud with all the traffic back and forth? If you are going to leave it there in the dark--why move it 75 feet from the house. (the same distance Charlie was from Mt. Rose Road)? If there was in fact a second set of footprints, as detected and reported, and a second perp-- then why leave all this potentially damning evidence behind? To frame a carpenter? No--cant be that? Must be they were in a huge hurry to get out of Dodge? Looks like very poor planning in the final analysis that took over one year. If BRH is #1 whos #2?
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Apr 21, 2006 12:10:25 GMT -5
You know I think we all are possessed of a sphere of knowledge and experience which helps shape the way we think and perceive all issues that confront us. That is why it is sometimes amusing, and perplexing as well, to see the difficulty in grasping some aspects of this case which pertain to my experience in construction. Take this chisel for example, to me it is simply not a problem that it is at the site and left behind. I would not be at all surprised if more tools were there that night as well. Carrying multiple tools around and up a ladder is par for the course. Losing one or two happens quite often. The same goes for the re-staging of the ladder. When you work as carpenter you learn to be resourceful and you do whatever it take to get a job done. I once questioned why the ladder wasn't a few inches wider and was quite surprised at the replies dismissing such an idea due to the several extra pounds it would entail. This is hard for me to understand as anyone in the trades will readily understand that carrying a few extra pounds is well worth the effort if it ultimately makes the job easier or safer. Now I don't know how Hauptmann usually worked, that is how he carried his tools. I know he had that suitcase and I assume he transported them that way. Regardless, if it came to breaking into that house I am sure that he would have found a way to stuff whatever tools he may have thought necessary into his pockets if he had to. Whatever it takes to get the job done, that is what it always comes down to.
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Post by rick3dot14719 on Apr 21, 2006 16:09:04 GMT -5
Kevin....in order to reply to any post and sidestep answering that many honest questions simultaneosly I would say that :"Whatever it takes to get the NEXT POST done, that is what it always comes down to."
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Post by kevkon on Apr 21, 2006 17:03:53 GMT -5
Rick, sorry I thought your questions were rhetorical. What specifically would you like an answer to? Is it possible to carry a multitude of tools on your person while climbing a ladder? YES Is it possible to accidentally drop one? YES Can one person in very good physical condition carry these tools and a ladder the distance? YES Can the kidnap ladder be erected by one person and climbed in either one, two , or three sections? YES Could Hauptmann gain entry to that room through the window and seize the child without leaving prints everywhere? YES Could Hauptmann have gained entry even without an unlocked shutter and window? YES Do carpenters tend to be adaptive and resourceful in the face of unexpected situations? YES
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Post by Michael on Apr 21, 2006 21:38:03 GMT -5
Kevin,
You were the first to point out to me that a 3/4" chisel would not open those shutters if the slide bolt had been employed. Lt. Keaton backs you up on this and I think this makes your point a slam-dunk. Now wouldn't a Carpenter such as Hauptmann have known this as well, and what tool do you think he had ready to get past this obstacle?
I agree with your position that the 3/4" inch was probably the most used size among chisels. It also seems to support your theory the crime was originally intended for the French Window. Now as to the "exclusion" within Hauptmann's tools...
This was 2-1/2 years later. We know Hauptmann loaned out his tools from time to time. We also know other essential tools were missing from his garage at the time of his arrest. So, by your very own position this was a popular tool could explain why it wasn't in that garage.
Also, when looking at that inventory we see there simply wasn't a complete set of Bucks Brothers chisels at all - it was more like a hodge-podge of various brands and sizes.
Furthermore, Hauptmann claimed to have a new set of Stanley chisels at the time he was arrested. Scaduto claimed he found a 3/4" Stanley chisel in an envelop marked Hauptmann's garage while at the NJSP Headquarters searching through the evidence which seems to support that position.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Apr 22, 2006 7:16:15 GMT -5
Michael. I nor anyone else can say what use the chisel might have been used for or it's intended use. I only am stating what I know it is not used for and that it is such a common work-a-day tool that it's presence is not strange. Now if a 24" joining plane was found near the house we would have an entirely different situation. I would imagine any kidnapper would come prepared to deal with different conditions, but I am not sure that the locked shutters were expected. I agree completely with you about Hauptmann's ownership of this chisel and have said so. Buck Bro. are very common and without some type of distinguishing mark I can not see anyone saying with certainty that it was Hauptmann's.
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Post by rick3point1475 on Apr 22, 2006 10:46:12 GMT -5
Kevin...you must be able to read my mind, something I often cannot do? I was thinking of asking you if you would have considered it suspicious if a plane had been left by the ladder! Really--? I agree that the nappers cant waste alot of extra time moving the ladder from window to window to find the open shutter. Bern estimates that the drive from the Bronx to Highfields is about 2 hours in 1932. So, then add on the time from Featherbed Lane (or driveway) carrying the ladder. Remembering that BRH must get back to pickup Anna by...0830? Heres the real question: Can the snatcher see that the shutters are not latched from the ground even in the dark? Is it crucial that the snatcher pick the correct window right from the get go to save precious time? Was there any hole evidence that another window was tried with the ladder first?
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Post by kevkon on Apr 22, 2006 11:34:32 GMT -5
That is an excellent question , Rick, and one I have always wondered myself ( maybe you can read my mind?) Unfortunately I think it is impossible to answer. Theoretically it could be very possible but it would depend on how long the house was observed that night, the t and internal lighting, and what exactly Gow meant by "fixed as well as possible". Of course there is another possibility, and I only mean it as such, that the kidnapper had made a previous attempt and discovered or even caused the shutter to be un-lockable.
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Post by Michael on Apr 23, 2006 9:51:54 GMT -5
Another thing I think is important and worth mentioning... The mortices on the ladder were made with a very sharp tool. Squire Johnson said a 3/4" chisel. Koehler at first said he couldn't tell but later claims it was a 3/4" chisel.
Now the chisel found at Highfields was very sharp. This isn't consistent with those tools found in Hauptmann's place. It may imply it had been recently sharpened for the purpose of making the ladder OR that it was sharpened for whatever purpose it was intended at Highfields.
Again though, it seems IF Hauptmann used his Sergent's plane on that ladder then he didn't seem too concerned with sharpening his tools. So I see several issues to explore concerning the shape of his tools.
The shutter question is a good one, and Kevin....your floating this idea out there is something worth considering - especially when taking into account what Watson is quoted as saying in Dr. Gardner's book.
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Post by Joe on Apr 23, 2006 18:08:36 GMT -5
It sounds like some good thoughts starting to precipitate here (hmm) on the issue of the warped shutter not closing properly.
Kevin, I think you wrote earlier that the shutter hinges were not exposed to the outside when in a closed position, but I recall seeing a photo which showed they were accessible. Can you check and confirm this? I've often thought about the sharpened chisel being used to remove the shutter pins if the kidnapper did not go directly at the slide bolt by first ripping out a few of the slats. In this case, he would have needed the third section of the ladder to get alongside the right hand shutter hinge pins in order to remove them. Then it would be a matter of swinging the still-locked shutters on their left hand hinge assembly, away from the window. Does this sound feasible?
Another thought about the shutters not closing properly. During the time from installation of the shutters up until the night of March 1, and because of the infrequency that the Lindberghs stayed in Hopewell, is it not likely the shutters were dogged in an open position most of this time? If so, and given the likelihood of moisture and temperature cycling for three or four winter weather months, would this have tended to promote a certain shape which more profiled the dogged position than their closed and bolted position?
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Post by kevkon on Apr 24, 2006 7:47:59 GMT -5
Joe, the shutter hinges are called pintel hinges. This type of hinge has a fixed pin on the house side hinge and the shutter hinge slides down onto this. It is primarily used for shutters so they can be removed easily for storage and painting as well as easy mounting/dis-mounting. Normally this means that the shutters provide little security as one can simply lift the up off the hinge pin. However, at Highfields the shutters actually sit into the masonry(stone) window opening in their closed position. This means they cannot be lifted up and off the hinge pin as the top of the window opening prevents the upward travel needed to dis-engage the hinge.
Yes, the louvered shutters are particularly prone to movement (warpage) since they have no solid center panels to resist this. It would depend on the particular piece of wood used as one of the stiles and the exposure. Actually wood shutter warpage is fairly common, it often is unnoticed due to the fact that most shutters are actually not used or the latching mechanism is sloppy and allows for the warpage. Unfortunately, there does not seem to be enough documentation on the Nursery shutter and it's defect. There appears to me to be warpage on the right shutter in one of my photos but this could also be photographic distortion. It might also be possible to alter the hinge or latch slightly so that the shutters would not close properly and lock.
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Post by Joe on Apr 24, 2006 21:25:05 GMT -5
Kevin, thanks, that's great information on the shutters and very well explained.
The warping issue of the one shutter intrigues me as being one of those peculiarities in life that ultimately presents itself as absolute irony. In all of the perceived protection the Lindberghs believed they had provided for themselves, this one seemingly insignificant element might well have been quietly and persistently working away in the background against them.
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Post by Michael on Apr 25, 2006 17:41:36 GMT -5
In the Case That Never Dies, p. 412, we see mentioned for the first time ever that David Watson called the Penns Neck station to say these shutters were not warped. I have both reports concerning this account as written by Tpr. Lambertson and Sgt. Campbell, NJSP. From Campbell's report: Mr. Watson is a contractor that worked on the Lindbergh Home, and stated that he worked on the hanging of the shutters, and that it would be impossible for them to be warped now. He stated that if the shutters would warp they would have done so while he was on the job and they would have been fixed at that time. Is Watson wrong, and is it possible for this (1) shutter to have warped sometime afterwards while all the others, being hung the same time, made of the same materials, and subjected to the same weather conditions? If so how likely? I ask in order to consider how much weight to place upon the suggestion Kevin made concerning someone possibly tampering with this shutter ahead of time in preparation for this crime.
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Post by kevkon on Apr 25, 2006 18:28:41 GMT -5
Michael, I was going to mention to Lloyd that this is a totally erroneous statement and I don't know how that contractor could say such a thing. Any exterior woodwork can cup or warp at any time depending on a variety of factors.Shutters are particularly prone to distortion due to the extreme climatic changes they are`exposed to and the extreme differential exposure between the face and back.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on May 1, 2006 7:21:53 GMT -5
There is one use for that chisel found that comes to my mind. If the kidnapper was prepared to get through those bolted shutters a 3/4" chisel could be used to break the louvered slats out to gain access to the latch bolt. You would simply stick the end of the chisel between the slats and snap them. It would be somewhat noisy and messy, but it would work.
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Post by Michael on May 1, 2006 7:45:10 GMT -5
I agree with this 100%. Considering the shape of Hauptmann's tools then would you agree this 3/4" chisel isn't Hauptmann's if this were true? You certainly don't need a razor sharp tool to perform this function.
I think you may be on to something about the French Window. The only problem is the apparent direct route and one time stop to that nursery window.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on May 2, 2006 7:24:05 GMT -5
There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that the french window was the intended access point. It is a no brainer when you consider the relative difference in ease of entry ( especially with a "package"). Couple this fact with the stable, flat, and clean surface of the patio and you have the best option here. This "sharp" chisel seems to keep coming back to haunt. If the chisel was in fact very sharp it would not likely be carried in a pocket. Typically a carpenter will have a set of chisels of the same make and will keep them in a special chisel pouch made of leather or heavy canvas which protects the cutting edges. Failure to do this will result in damaged edges which will require a lot of hand re-sharpening. This leads me to believe that the kidnapper brought a tool bag along with him.
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Post by Michael on May 5, 2006 21:19:12 GMT -5
Then by this logic, wouldn't you agree whoever had the tool bag must have had this chisel out for some reason in order to drop it?
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on May 6, 2006 6:43:16 GMT -5
Probably. I would assume that several tools would be removed, These would be carried on the climber to overcome any obstacles.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2014 8:41:15 GMT -5
Michael,I have a couple of questions for you about Hauptmann's tools plus other tools. Did all the tools found in Hauptmann's garage in September 1934 end up in possession of the authorities or did they only remove certain tools they thought might have been used to build the ladder? Perhaps influenced by Arthur Koehler.
Did Hauptmann have his tools marked with any identifying marks such as his initials?
Were the authorities still in possession of any of the tools removed from Shippell's shack at the time that Hauptmann's were brought in?
After Koehler became active in this case did he ever review the tools that were found in Shippell's shack?
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Post by Michael on Apr 11, 2014 15:41:47 GMT -5
Did all the tools found in Hauptmann's garage in September 1934 end up in possession of the authorities or did they only remove certain tools they thought might have been used to build the ladder? Perhaps influenced by Arthur Koehler. They took them all. Did Hauptmann have his tools marked with any identifying marks such as his initials? No. But to be clear, some of his tools weren't brand new when he bought them. Were the authorities still in possession of any of the tools removed from Shippell's shack at the time that Hauptmann's were brought in? I cannot say 100% "yes" although Schippel was claiming they did. After Koehler became active in this case did he ever review the tools that were found in Shippell's shack? I am positive he examined his chisel.
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