metje
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Post by metje on May 3, 2020 10:23:44 GMT -5
The picture of Marguerite Junge that I posted was sent to me by archivist Mark Falzini of the New Jersey State Police collection. Mark also sent me her signature, which I could also post if requested. Her full name as she signed it was Adele Marguerite Jantzen Junge. (Maiden name "Jantzen" and married name "Junge.") So the source is indeed reliable. I have no idea how old she was when this photo was taken.
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metje
Detective
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Post by metje on May 3, 2020 12:59:57 GMT -5
I have a question regarding Isidor Fisch that perhaps a member of the board could make response.
Fisch was a fur-cutter and entered into a business venture with Richard Hauptmann. Some sources indicate that they sold furs that were expensive but not of good quality. it is quite possible that the furs were seconds or rejects taken from the factory where Fisch worked.
Henry Ellerson's mother, Catherine Bird Eilersen, was a manager of a women's hat store in Englewood Cliffs. Perhaps this store (unnamed) was a client of Fisch and Hauptmann. Are there any records that anyone knows os that would indicate this relationship?
The FBI files state that on the morning of the kidnapping Henry Ellerson was busy cleaning a car that would take Elisabeth Morrow to visit a Mrs. Allerson, a possible misspelling for "Eilersen." Miss Morrow may have been a patron of the store where Mrs. Eilersen worked.
It's is possible that Fisch became acquainted with members of the Morrow household through his business. Gustav Mancke reported that he had seen Fisch and Violet Sharp several times in the winter of 1931-32 at his deli, so if this account is credible, then Fisch may have become acquainted with other members of the Morrow household staff, the fur trade being the vehicle in establishing the means of an introduction.
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Post by hurtelable on May 3, 2020 13:01:02 GMT -5
The woman in the photo with Isador Fisch has a thinner face, and more prominent cheekbones and more prominent jaw than the woman in the photo identified as Marguerite Junge. Additionally, the woman Fisch is holding on his shoulders looks younger than Junge in the Junge photo, plus the two comb their hair from opposite sides. Of course, we don't know what dates these photos were taken, and one of them could be a mirror image of an original. Yet, putting everything together, it is very unlikely that the young lady Fisch is holding up on his shoulders was Marguerite Junge.
BTW, it was remarkable that the smallish-sized Fisch, who suffered from TB, had the strength to lift up that lady on his shoulders.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2020 16:18:22 GMT -5
I don't recall ever seeing a picture of Mrs. Schussler, but if Mbg is leaning that way then it's probably a safe bet. Do you have Scaduto's book? If so, turn to page 320. The picture section on the right hand side has the picture of Fisch, and Gerta rowing with Louisa Schussler and her daughter Violet sitting in the center of Hauptmann's canoe. Louisa's hair is flat against her head and it makes her facial features rather sharp. She could be wearing the short sleeve shirt that the girl in the Fisch picture I posted is wearing. Its possible that Louisa's hair is flat from being wet in that Scaduto picture. Mbg could be correct.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2020 16:21:35 GMT -5
BTW, it was remarkable that the smallish-sized Fisch, who suffered from TB, had the strength to lift up that lady on his shoulders. I had the same immediate reaction to that picture! Fisch would be dead in less than a year from TB.
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Post by MaryLS on May 4, 2020 17:09:36 GMT -5
I found this video of the Fisch family arriving for testimony. They appear to be well dressed and pretty up beat -- I guess a trip to the US is exciting regardless of circumstances. Now they were never called upon to testify. I am puzzled about why the state would bring all of them over. Why not just one or a couple of them? www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzmvWa0VcWE
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Post by hurtelable on May 5, 2020 7:38:57 GMT -5
I found this video of the Fisch family arriving for testimony. They appear to be well dressed and pretty up beat -- I guess a trip to the US is exciting regardless of circumstances. Now they were never called upon to testify. I am puzzled about why the state would bring all of them over. Why not just one or a couple of them? www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzmvWa0VcWEThe Fisch family should have been upbeat as Jews who had left Nazi Germany. Unfortunately, they did not fully comprehend the Hitler regime's future plans for Germany's Jews (and the Jews in other countries which they later conquered). Thus they didn't attempt to seek asylum and residence in the US, and instead went back to Germany. As it turned out, as Michael posted on another thread here a awhile back, the entire family perished several years later in the Nazi Holocaust.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2020 9:30:27 GMT -5
Now they were never called upon to testify. I am puzzled about why the state would bring all of them over. Why not just one or a couple of them? Thanks for sharing that video clip! Henna Fisch, Isidor's sister did testify at the Hauptmann Trial on February 8, 1935, during the rebuttal phase. My opinion is that Wilentz thought Henna would be perceived as a credible witness who would invoke a more sympathetic response from the jury regarding Isidor. Henna's presence on the stand also limits the scope of inquiry regarding business dealings between Isidor and his brother Pincus and the contact between Pincus Fisch and Hauptmann after Isidor's death. Henna would testify to Fisch being sick and not in possession of any large amount of money upon his return to Germany.
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metje
Detective
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Post by metje on May 5, 2020 11:31:27 GMT -5
I am including this information this thread since someone referred to "dance lessons" taken by Isidor Fisch.
In the FBI report, Henry Ellerson was said to have a "best friend named Hans Petersen, a dancing instructor." In "The Histories of the Muncipalities of Hudson County, N.J." (Vol 3, 1924, ed. Daniel Van Winkle) Hans Petersen's biography is included. He is identified as a Head of a Dancing Academy who also gave instruction in Tespsichaorean Art at his school located at 434 Hoboken Ave. in Jersey City. Petersen's father, Christian, was born in Denmark. He was married to Anna Elizabeth Roode, and they became the parents of Hans.
After Christian died, his widow married Edward Eilersen, and they became the parents of From C., superintendent of the Knickerbocker Biscuit Co in New York, daughter Sophia who married August J. Lambert, and Charles, (Henry Ellerson' father) who worked for the Pennsylvania Railroad.
Professor Hans Peterson became a successful own of several schools of dance in Hudson and Essex Counties. He also conducted a wholesale tea and coffee business, as did Charles Henry Eilersen, father of Henry Ellerson, in the early 1900s. This information can be found on-line if anyone wants to look for further details.
So, where and when did Isidor Fischreceive dancing lessons?
Could he have been a student of Hans Petersen, Charles Henry Ellerson's best friend?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2020 13:14:58 GMT -5
I am including this information this thread since someone referred to "dance lessons" taken by Isidor Fisch. So, where and when did Isidor Fischreceive dancing lessons? Could he have been a student of Hans Petersen, Charles Henry Ellerson's best friend? That was an interesting post you made. I did mention earlier on the thread that Fisch took dancing lessons. I don't know exactly when he took them but here is the dancing school card found among Fisch's items that are at the archives. imgur.com/b4lwoYaIn one of the investigative reports, it is mentioned that Fisch would attend social activities of the Vienese Social Club which were held at the Hunt's Point Palace, no address given. The informant says she met Fisch in 1929 at these socials. I think good dancing skills would have been an asset at these types of gatherings.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2020 20:36:51 GMT -5
Hunts Point Palace - Southern Blvd at 163rd in the Bronx. Quite the venue back in the day! Thanks for finding that address. It sounds like the place was a very nice establishment. A good place for Fisch to make the right kind of social contacts.
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metje
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Post by metje on May 6, 2020 6:14:28 GMT -5
Thank you both for your responses to my earlier post. I did not mean to imply that Hans Petersen was in any way connected to the kidnapping but thought it interesting that he was actually the older half-brother of Henry Ellerson's father, Charles, although his name appears as Henry's "best friend" in the record. It could be that Ellerson wanted to link his name to someone prominent and so neglected to mention the family relationship as he was questioned by the FBI.
Isidor Fisch is an enigma. He appears to be odd at some times but quite sociable as he appears in a number of photos with different groups. In the pictures the individuals often link by joining hands or forming a circle, making the group members appear to be tight buddies. Fisch may have adopted a different persona depending on the group he was socializing or doing business with. If that is the case, finding the true personality of Isidor Fisch may be difficult to discover. In other words, he could have been capable of telling a number of "Fisch stories" and acting them out.
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metje
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Posts: 174
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Post by metje on May 6, 2020 6:42:23 GMT -5
I also thought it interesting that Isidor Fisch named his unsuccessful pie business the "Knickerbocker Pie Company" after the successful New York business called "Knickerbocker Biscuit" which was, at one time, managed by Henry Ellerson's uncle, a brother of his father Charles and half-brother of Hans Petersen.
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Post by Michael on May 6, 2020 8:24:21 GMT -5
I found this video of the Fisch family arriving for testimony. They appear to be well dressed and pretty up beat -- I guess a trip to the US is exciting regardless of circumstances. Now they were never called upon to testify. I am puzzled about why the state would bring all of them over. Why not just one or a couple of them? www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzmvWa0VcWEHere's a couple of things that might help: imgur.com/x2N2gU7imgur.com/yjbsGgHThanks for sharing that video clip! Henna Fisch, Isidor's sister did testify at the Hauptmann Trial on February 8, 1935, during the rebuttal phase. My opinion is that Wilentz thought Henna would be perceived as a credible witness who would invoke a more sympathetic response from the jury regarding Isidor. Henna's presence on the stand also limits the scope of inquiry regarding business dealings between Isidor and his brother Pincus and the contact between Pincus Fisch and Hauptmann after Isidor's death. Henna would testify to Fisch being sick and not in possession of any large amount of money upon his return to Germany. Just to add to this to put it into proper context: The whole family believed that Fisch had money. Upon his death they were all looking forward to sharing in his fortune leading to all of the inquiries (and searches) back in the States.
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metje
Detective
Posts: 174
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Post by metje on May 6, 2020 9:14:17 GMT -5
The videos and request to the Governor are interesting and suggest that the family was in need of financial resources themselves. Germany suffered financial losses in their economy following World War I. It's possible that the Fisch family sent Isidor to the U.S. specifically to get a good job or start business in order for him to send help back home. He may have been under considerable pressure to do this for them, and that would explain his various efforts in trying to make money in the US. Unfortunately he was not a good businessman, and the Great Depression did not help the situation.
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Joe
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Post by Joe on May 6, 2020 9:49:42 GMT -5
Thank you both for your responses to my earlier post. I did not mean to imply that Hans Petersen was in any way connected to the kidnapping but thought it interesting that he was actually the older half-brother of Henry Ellerson's father, Charles, although his name appears as Henry's "best friend" in the record. It could be that Ellerson wanted to link his name to someone prominent and so neglected to mention the family relationship as he was questioned by the FBI. Isidor Fisch is an enigma. He appears to be odd at some times but quite sociable as he appears in a number of photos with different groups. In the pictures the individuals often link by joining hands or forming a circle, making the group members appear to be tight buddies. Fisch may have adopted a different persona depending on the group he was socializing or doing business with. If that is the case, finding the true personality of Isidor Fisch may be difficult to discover. In other words, he could have been capable of telling a number of "Fisch stories" and acting them out. Fisch was the ultimate conman. I also believe it's highly unlikely he could have been Hauptmann's close friend and business partner for the actual time he was, without his full awareness of Hauptmann's obvious participation in the case from the ground up. I consider Anna Hauptmann in that regard as well. Hauptmann never gave a millimetre despite the mass of incriminating evidence they pushed into his face. He insisted his wife do the very same through the sacred bond they had established together, and she did. As she told Scaduto, she knew him better than anyone else in his life.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2020 7:59:05 GMT -5
I also thought it interesting that Isidor Fisch named his unsuccessful pie business the "Knickerbocker Pie Company" after the successful New York business called "Knickerbocker Biscuit" which was, at one time, managed by Henry Ellerson's uncle, a brother of his father Charles and half-brother of Hans Petersen. Just thought you might want to know that the business "Knickerbocker Pie Company" was already in existence before Fisch was brought into it by Charles Schleser. Fisch did not name the Company.
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Post by Mbg on May 7, 2020 11:40:31 GMT -5
I just looked at the picture of Isidor, Mrs. Schuessler and her daughter Violet in the canoe again and realized that Violet is much younger than the girl on Isidor's shoulders in the other photo. So that girl or young woman must be someone else. I'm sorry for having confused the issue. One thing is certain: She's not Marguerite Junge.
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Post by hurtelable on May 7, 2020 16:00:42 GMT -5
I found this video of the Fisch family arriving for testimony. They appear to be well dressed and pretty up beat -- I guess a trip to the US is exciting regardless of circumstances. Now they were never called upon to testify. I am puzzled about why the state would bring all of them over. Why not just one or a couple of them? www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzmvWa0VcWEWould anyone be able to identify the man in the second half of the short film showing the Fisch family arriving in the US and traveling to Flemington? He is seen preparing and eating what seems like breakfast in the company of a cat and then a dog. Guessing he might be a juror or maybe a law enforcement officer? Unfortunately, no audio on the film.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2020 19:43:23 GMT -5
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Post by hurtelable on May 8, 2020 6:43:13 GMT -5
Thanks, amy35. Amazing that you could come up with that! BTW, speaking of Isador Fisch, today is the 75th anniversary of the formal surrender of Nazi Germany and the end of WWII in Europe, aka VE Day.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2020 7:26:44 GMT -5
Thanks, amy35. Amazing that you could come up with that! BTW, speaking of Isador Fisch, today is the 75th anniversary of the formal surrender of Nazi Germany and the end of WWII in Europe, aka VE Day. I was familiar with the getty image of Fred Snyder from having looked at so many pictures on this case. I recognized him when I watched the video posted by MaryLS. So it was easy for me to answer your question. Yes, this would be a very important anniversary, indeed, in the history of WWII. How are you linking this with Isidor Fisch?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2020 7:34:20 GMT -5
I want to post an picture here that comes from a video on the Lindbergh kidnapping. This still supposedly shows Isidor Fisch behind an unidentified woman and Henry Uhlig in front of the unidentified woman, disembarking after arriving in Hamburg, Germany in December 1933. I thought it interesting that someone caught this on film back then. imgur.com/VPoLC1WThis still shot is taken from this video. It appears at 14 minutes into the show. youtu.be/EhIod3ewoW0
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Post by hurtelable on May 8, 2020 8:16:34 GMT -5
The entire Fisch immediate family perished in the Holocaust, which resulted from Nazi Germany's state-sponsored systematic plan to murder as many Jews and undesirable others as they could. So you cannot think of Nazi Germany without linking it to all of its Holocaust victims, including the Fisch family. VE Day brought an end to this, finally, and it is another occasion to reflect on the wanton barbarism of the Nazi regime.
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Post by Sue on May 8, 2020 11:40:33 GMT -5
Isidor Fisch would also have been a victim of the Holocaust, had he lived longer than March 1934.
Why the rush to get out of America in December 1933 when he could have been treated for his TB in a New York Hospital?
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Joe
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Post by Joe on May 8, 2020 12:08:56 GMT -5
Isidor Fisch would also have been a victim of the Holocaust, had he lived longer than March 1934. Why the rush to get out of America in December 1933 when he could have been treated for his TB in a New York Hospital? I have a feeling he sensed his own mortality, and wanted to be near his family if his health took a turn for the worse. I also believe there was something to his desire to try and set up a fur importing business with Hauptmann if he did get better, in order to cover his past business failures and personal debts. And I'm sure he was well aware that the remaining nearly 15K in gold notes in Hauptmann's garage, stood little chance of being passed at all.
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Joe
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Post by Joe on May 8, 2020 15:06:38 GMT -5
I want to post an picture here that comes from a video on the Lindbergh kidnapping. This still supposedly shows Isidor Fisch behind an unidentified woman and Henry Uhlig in front of the unidentified woman, disembarking after arriving in Hamburg, Germany in December 1933. I thought it interesting that someone caught this on film back then. imgur.com/VPoLC1WThis still shot is taken from this video. It appears at 14 minutes into the show. youtu.be/EhIod3ewoW0I agree that's a pretty amazing random capture of Fisch and company disembarking in Hamburg. I watched this video again and I'm just amazed at how much Scaduto was taken in by the concept of Hauptmann being innocent and totally framed. I'd have to believe that unless he just closed his eyes going forward, he must have come to understand the actual level of Hauptmann's involvement before he passed. Like Kennedy though, it's too bad these investigative journalists can't bend once they've put themselves out on a limb and honorably retract what they've put in print and video. Instead they basically go down with the ship maintaining their false narrative which only helps to maintain their propped up reputations, but of course only sets the case back that much further for anyone who hasn't seen the full importance of the circumstantial physical evidence.
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Post by hurtelable on May 9, 2020 6:30:37 GMT -5
Isidor Fisch would also have been a victim of the Holocaust, had he lived longer than March 1934. Why the rush to get out of America in December 1933 when he could have been treated for his TB in a New York Hospital? It does seem strange for a Jewish man to be traveling from the United States back to Nazi Germany in late 1933. Ordinarily, one might expect the movement of Jews at this time to have been in the opposite direction, especially if the US had been more lenient in allowing German Jews to obtain asylum. It's possible that Fisch, like his companion Uhlig, had plans to return to the US but that his poor health preluded it. As for being "treated for his TB in a New York Hospital", bear in mind that there were no specific drug therapies for TB at this time. TB patients in NYC, if they could afford the price, frequently moved into sanitoriums in rural areas for long-term care. This was statistically of some benefit in slowing down the disease, but did not cure it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2020 7:34:55 GMT -5
Isidor Fisch would also have been a victim of the Holocaust, had he lived longer than March 1934. Why the rush to get out of America in December 1933 when he could have been treated for his TB in a New York Hospital? I wondered about this after reading your post. Fisch's German visitor's visa which originally had been granted May 18, 1932 valid for a temporary stay in Germany for one year was not used. On November 14, 1933, Fisch was granted another German visiting visa for one year. This would have covered him until November 1934. Fisch did have a return ticket for America in his possessions when he died in March 1934. From the correspondence I have read between Fisch and some of his American friends, it reveals that Fisch was being treated by a Dr. Becker during the summer of 1933 before he went to Germany. Fisch chose not to be treated in a hospital while in America. Fisch's TB was getting worse and he thought he might get better treatment in Germany. The German doctor who Fisch went to after arriving in Germany was Dr. Chammitzer of Leipzig. As Dr. Chammitzer says in his report, Fisch was in bad condition when he first sought treatment in Germany. Fisch was not hospitalized in Germany either until just a couple days before his death. Fisch did realize that he didn't get serious enough with treatment and he was learning a lesson from it. He really was hoping though to get better and come back to America. If you, or anyone on the board would like me to post Dr. Chammitzer's medical report, I would be happy to do so. Had Fisch by some miracle been able to recover from TB and then decided to stay in Germany, I wonder if his American citizenship would have been useful in protecting him from imprisonment by the Nazi government?
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metje
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Post by metje on May 9, 2020 9:23:25 GMT -5
Germany was at that time the best place to be for patients with tuberculosis. You may remember Stephen Crane from American Literature classes ("Red Badge of Courage"). Crane developed TB and chose to go to Germany to enter a sanitarium there but he died there while still young. Isidor Fisch gave a number of possessions to Hauptmann before leaving for Germany, items for Hauptmann to hold until he returned, and Hauptmann did write to the family to tell them he was keeping these items--though not mentioning the ransom money. If Fisch had been aware that he had TB, he still might not have wished to enter a sanitorium. The Fisch family members were observant Jews, and it might have been difficult to continue strict practices in a secular institution. Isidor may have thought that his family could give him the best care. Whether he observed the orthodox practices in the US is another question.
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