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Post by lightningjew on Jan 17, 2015 3:11:02 GMT -5
Hurt, I agree with you. There were two sets of footprints leading away from Highfields, neither of which matched Hauptmann. So, just given that right there, I don't think he was a lone wolf. I mean, where would someone like him suddenly get the idea to kidnap the Lindbergh Baby anyhow, and why ask for so little money? Seems like there are much easier and less dangerous get-rich-quick schemes. But while I do think the ladder could support more weight than is commonly thought, it's still very oddly constructed and, yeah, why would a carpenter build something like that? I mean, I think Hauptmann did build it, since wood in the ladder matched wood in his house, so was he trying to disguise his work by intentionally making it look shoddy and slapdash?
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Post by Michael on Jan 17, 2015 9:39:55 GMT -5
BTW, I stand corrected on rails 12 and 13, re which you point out that Koehler lied. But there are still all the rungs and three other rails of the ladder which were never linked to Hauptmann. While I champion the philosophy of looking at all possibilities, then arguing them out, I think it's a mistake to say because some parts are unaccounted for means none of the parts can be. This is a situation where we do have some links, and so if more and more links are in question - those other links can point to and compliment their connections. If not, do they disprove anything? That depends (at least to me it does) because since I've concluded Rail 16 was a match it doesn't matter where the other pieces came from - as it relates to Hauptmann's involvement. These will either remain unknown, pile on top of Hauptmann further, or point to others. They do not, in my opinion, disprove his involvement.
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Post by garyb215 on Jan 17, 2015 13:44:29 GMT -5
Its actually ridiculous Hauptmann went into the attic to get this board. Yet how can it it be explained otherwise? Some believe the ladder was well conceived out others built in haste. The answer is very important but I don't think an opinion will answer it. The kidnapping seemingly was planned out a year in advance if CJ spoke right and I don't doubt that. if there is a confederacy Hauptmann would have been considered the expert based on his similiar experience in Germany using a ladder. I believe it would've been proper to allow Hauptmann to write the notes as well. This is because if Hauptmann had to use his voice the diction spoken would match the penmanship keeping less exposure for anyone else involved. It would be important for this lead man to be committed, loyal, and unbreakable.
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Post by romeo12 on Jan 17, 2015 14:48:59 GMT -5
why ridiculous? he had acess to the attic he might of needed a piece of wood quick so he went up there and got it. some researchers think he made the ladder up there but I disagree. I was lucky enough to get into that attic it would have been unconfortable to work up there much easier in that garage
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Post by garyb215 on Jan 17, 2015 15:35:02 GMT -5
The same reason you belief Bormann wouldn't do funny stuff in the attic. It was a bitch to get in and out of.
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Post by romeo12 on Jan 17, 2015 17:45:53 GMT -5
I don't think he did
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Post by Michael on Jan 18, 2015 8:37:40 GMT -5
Its actually ridiculous Hauptmann went into the attic to get this board. Yet how can it it be explained otherwise? The Electricians cut Board #27 in order to run their wires. This piece (Rail 16) was tossed out of the crescent window, and found itself among the leftover materials Rauch collected in the Basement. The "framing" comes from the fact Police weren't being truthful about the source of Rail 16's actual discovery... the who, what, where and when. This was done, not to frame Hauptmann, but to ensure the evidence could be presented in the best light. It's a common theme that I run into - not to "fake" evidence but to fudge things that surrounded it, or make claims solidifying it which were untruthful. What most people have done over the years is think "black or white." That is, the Police either did nothing wrong or they did everything wrong. The answers, especially here, lie within a shade of grey.
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Post by garyb215 on Jan 18, 2015 11:41:00 GMT -5
So you are saying Hauptmann got the piece of wood from the basement. I am not sure why I missed this. I thought it was never determined how the board 16 made its way on the ladder other than it did.
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Post by romeo12 on Jan 18, 2015 12:03:41 GMT -5
you have proof of that mike? the police not being truthful. I don't buy this electrian thing. im going to give kevin a call
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Post by Michael on Jan 18, 2015 12:36:25 GMT -5
So you are saying Hauptmann got the piece of wood from the basement. I am not sure why I missed this. I thought it was never determined how the board 16 made its way on the ladder other than it did. Right. Way back when Rab suggested this as a possibility it didn't quite catch on. For me, I was still trying to determine whether or not the Board actually matched and what the Experts were saying about it. Then Kevin joined the Board and suddenly we had a Master Carpenter's perspective. Once he suggested the Electricians may have cut this Board, I thought we now have (2) separate neutral perspectives independently offering this theory. I remembered that Koehler himself testified that a Carpenter would NEVER leave S-226 hanging over the joist and would have cut it "flush" with the joist. And so I met Kevin at the Archives and we checked Rail 16 and S-226 for shadowing. S-226 had it but Rail 16 did not. After that I discovered the Electricians went into the attic after Koski laid the rough attic floor. Those who "like" the State's Theory ignore it. Those who want Hauptmann "innocent" ignore it. But it's there for anyone looking to know what really happened. It explains everything - most especially why Hauptmann was laughing about the claim he cannibalized his attic flooring. When Hauptmann built the garage, he was given full access to the material in that basement by Max. We both know how once people hitch their wagon to a star that they don't like changing their ideas - so they don't. They just ignore or refuse to believe what's in front of them. I've had people tell me, not very long ago actually, that something I said was "at variance with the facts" then dismissed it as if I had no idea what I was talking about. I was surprised at myself that I wasn't angry. But it exemplifies and demonstrates why certain people will only ever believe what they want to. Rab's original suggestion was dismissed because no one wanted to believe it. No one like it because it didn't fit the "black or white" scenario. you have proof of that mike? the police not being truthful. I don't buy this electrian thing. im going to give kevin a call Of course I do Steve. I have all the Reports, Statements, Letters, and Memos. I don't stop when I find something I like (or don't like). The fact is they were looking for Ransom Money and not wood concerning the ladder. Bornmann saw the nails and small pieces then scooped them up as an afterthought because of his dealings with Koehler. It's once the nails finally make their way to Koehler that triggers future events in that regard. There are also conflicting sources concerning what happened to S-226. Was it removed and locked up in the closet, or was it removed and brought to the NJSP Headquarters? I can show both happened, yet, that board cannot be in two places at once. This happened because once they "fudged" their dates they weren't exactly on the same page when writing their Reports.
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Post by romeo12 on Jan 19, 2015 9:53:39 GMT -5
I know I do to, but this garbage that the police did this faked wood and the electrician involvement is crazy
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Post by trojanusc on Jan 19, 2015 14:29:26 GMT -5
I know I do to, but this garbage that the police did this faked wood and the electrician involvement is crazy The far crazier thing, to me, would be that a guy who is a semi-working carpenter with essentially an unlimited wood supply, would remove shelving, shimmy up a very tight ladder and slice off a piece of flooring from the attic, when all he had to do was go to the basement to grab a piece of lumber. Further, he supposedly did this all while risking the wrath of his landlord who already hated him, should this act be discovered. It is absurd. Makes far more sense that the board was already cut and a piece was inadvertently mixed in with other spare lumber.
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Post by romeo12 on Jan 19, 2015 15:00:32 GMT -5
I heard this for 20 years, why did he go to the attic when he had unlimited supply. how do you know that? the evidence shows he did go into the attic for the wood. we don't know why in a lot of cases of what convicts do. don't try to think like Hauptman.
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Post by Michael on Jan 19, 2015 17:15:05 GMT -5
I heard this for 20 years, why did he go to the attic when he had unlimited supply. how do you know that? the evidence shows he did go into the attic for the wood. we don't know why in a lot of cases of what convicts do. don't try to think like Hauptman. You believe Hauptmann built that ladder - right? So ask yourself where he got the other pieces of wood. If you believe Rails 12 & 13 came from National then why wouldn't he grab what he needed? If he climbs into the attic, why not pull up the entire board? If he's going through all of that trouble why not build the entire thing from whatever he needs from that floor? Board #27 was the toe-board so #26 and in would have been easier to pull up. Regardless, if anyone went into that attic and started sawing anything Mrs. Rauch would have heard it then all hell would have ensued. Rauch collected ALL of the leftover material then stored it in the basement. One person said it looked like a "junk-yard" down there. He allowed Hauptmann access to these materials - do you dispute this? The "historical" version doesn't work. It worked for the State because the only access to the attic is through Hauptmann's apartment - meaning only he could have gotten to it. It's what they needed so they went with it. It was the scenario that was framed and not the actual Board. Place that Board in the basement, where it was, and now the waters get muddy. Do you dispute the State would engage in such a tactic? If you do I've got countless examples to prove you're wrong.
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Post by romeo12 on Jan 19, 2015 18:35:49 GMT -5
but ,mike, I don't care about the other pieces of the ladder,just rail 16. that's all I need to know why you and everybody else go in hauptmanns body and ask why didn't he do this and that. countless examples? im all ears. and how do youknow if rauch was even around when he did it? if they would have let me up there one more time, that was going to be my experiments. don't forget the attic sits on top of 2 apts, the closet that you had to go up still had a panel door of thick wood, she might not of heard it, if she was home at all.
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Post by Michael on Jan 19, 2015 20:45:59 GMT -5
but ,mike, I don't care about the other pieces of the ladder,just rail 16. that's all I need to know why you and everybody else go in hauptmanns body and ask why didn't he do this and that. But Steve you are trying to have it both ways. Below you say we don't know if he had access to a supply of wood, but the ladder itself proves that he actually did. If Koehler is to believed he had a whole lumber yard to choose from. And so if, for example, Hauptmann has Rail 16 and some other pieces he scavenges from the basement, he may then need to purchase more pieces from the yard. If he's in that attic he takes what he needs and not just one piece. Looking at it through this lens, we can't have him cannibalizing (1) board from an attic floor but buying wood too. That is completely irrational just as USC suggests. The only people who would cut a toe-board then leave it hanging over a joist is someone unfamiliar with carpentry and not caring about that situation - like an Electrician trying to run his wiring as fast as he can to get his job done. countless examples? im all ears. Are you kidding me right now? They pulled every trick in the book and ones that were never in one. Just for starters: They had a man pretend to be a Defense Witness so he could spy for the Prosecution.
They hired away a Defense Attorney who defected to the Prosecution then paid him $8000.00 for his services.
They beat Hauptmann with a Hammer then lied and said it never happened.
They testified about evidence being discovered in a specific place when it never was.
They threatened Defense Witnesses.
They had Newspapers print fake stories to coerce Witnesses.
They attempted to bribe Defense Private Investigators.
They hid Exculpatory Evidence.
One of my favorite: Wilentz gave Fisher permission to access the attic. Fisher drove to the Bronx and was refused access. When Fisher called Wilentz to protest he declined to come to the phone having his Secretary claim that he had Laryngitis.
They had NJSP Officers eavesdrop on privileged conversations between Hauptmann and his Lawyers with hidden mics then wrote reports that were turned over to the Prosecutors.
I could go on and on... and how do youknow if rauch was even around when he did it? if they would have let me up there one more time, that was going to be my experiments. don't forget the attic sits on top of 2 apts, the closet that you had to go up still had a panel door of thick wood, she might not of heard it, if she was home at all. Mrs. Rauch told State Troopers that she could hear conversations through those walls. Using this as a control, to suggest that she could not hear a floorboard being sawn seems highly unlikely. According to both Max and Mrs. Rauch - she rarely left the house.
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Post by romeo12 on Jan 19, 2015 21:19:44 GMT -5
well that's your opinion you and others have more excuses for Hauptman then any other case I look at. in rauchs house it would be the ceiling not the walls since hauptmann lived upstairs. what was fisher going to prove? Hoffman did the funny things up there with his cronies. we will never know what rauch could hear I couldnt do the experiment
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Post by garyb215 on Jan 19, 2015 21:50:18 GMT -5
Does the bigger picture change? It appears rail 16 should be traced to Hauptmann's living location whether it was snatched from the basement or attic. ......... Even if one thinks or knows Hauptmann is guilty as sin you have to question Wilentz when he puts liars like Rossiter, Whited, and Hockmuth on the stand. Whats funny is whats the % of all the witnesses being truthful including Hauptmann, Condon, and even Lindbergh. It was a trial of liars !
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Post by romeo12 on Jan 19, 2015 21:56:15 GMT -5
the biggest liar of all in this case was hauptman
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Post by rebekah on Jan 19, 2015 22:18:47 GMT -5
the biggest liar of all in this case was hauptman I will respectfully disagree. The biggest liar of all in this case was Charles Lindbergh.
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Post by romeo12 on Jan 19, 2015 23:08:40 GMT -5
I don't agree but that's what makes this case fun a lot of disagreement.
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Post by Michael on Jan 21, 2015 17:29:56 GMT -5
well that's your opinion you and others have more excuses for Hauptman then any other case I look at. in rauchs house it would be the ceiling not the walls since hauptmann lived upstairs. what was fisher going to prove? Hoffman did the funny things up there with his cronies. we will never know what rauch could hear I couldnt do the experiment I think you're worrying too much about how Hauptmann "looks" and too little about what the individual facts/issues are. I am quite certain your experiment would have proven that sawing in the attic would have been heard by everyone in that house.
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Post by Michael on Jan 21, 2015 17:38:52 GMT -5
Does the bigger picture change? It appears rail 16 should be traced to Hauptmann's living location whether it was snatched from the basement or attic. ......... Even if one thinks or knows Hauptmann is guilty as sin you have to question Wilentz when he puts liars like Rossiter, Whited, and Hockmuth on the stand. Whats funny is whats the % of all the witnesses being truthful including Hauptmann, Condon, and even Lindbergh. It was a trial of liars ! As you know, this case is made up of at least a thousand sub-mysteries. I consider each like a puzzle piece. While some are bigger then others, sometimes it's the little one that leads to a clearer picture of the overall scene. This particular "piece" solves the question of whether or not Rail 16 did originate from that attic. While true situation presented a problem to the State in it's Lone-Wolf theory because others had access to that basement, for me, it clearly indicates that Hauptmann had a hand in the construction of that ladder. And it also shows, yet again, to what lengths the Authorities would (or would not go to) in order to prove their case.
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Post by romeo12 on Jan 21, 2015 17:54:02 GMT -5
im not worried mike, I want to make sure somebody could hear it or not. you jump to a conclusion that you don't really know if its possible or not
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Post by Michael on Jan 21, 2015 20:09:27 GMT -5
im not worried mike, I want to make sure somebody could hear it or not. you jump to a conclusion that you don't really know if its possible or not I think that since Mrs. Rauch could eavesdrop on conversations through the floor then to hear sawing in the attic isn't a big stretch with that in mind.
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Post by romeo12 on Jan 22, 2015 9:11:33 GMT -5
she has to hear it between 3 floors
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Post by Michael on Jan 22, 2015 18:31:12 GMT -5
she has to hear it between 3 floors If she were in the basement. But she lived on the 1st floor. So we know she could hear and recite conversations through the floor between the 1st & 2nd story, but you assume she wouldn't hear the sawing in the attic above the 2nd story?
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Post by romeo12 on Jan 22, 2015 20:33:33 GMT -5
mike if I did the experiment I would have something to say. my opinion being on those floors she might not have heard it but I don't know
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Post by hurtelable on Feb 1, 2016 20:23:49 GMT -5
To All:
I'm just now rereading Lloyd Gardner's "The Case That Never Dies" and would appreciate some comments on what Gardner describes in some detail on pp. 388-392 and refers to as "The Attic Affair" (using the French "l'affaire mansarde") which occurred on March 26, 1936 (eight days before Hauptmann's execution). This was said to be a rather dramatic and contentious meeting between pro-prosecution celebs (Wilentz, Bornmann, Koehler, Hauck) and equally prominent opponents / skeptics of their Rail 16-attic floorboard link theory (Gov. Hoffman, Lloyd Fisher, Oursler, and and a wood ex pert working for Hoffman), occurring in what was formerly Hauptmann's attic.
I'm trying to imagine that tense scene, with the skeptics and defense counsel having access to this vital location for the first time since Hauptmann's arrest, now over a year after Hauptmann's conviction largely on the wood evidence, and now days before the scheduled execution. Seems like both sides brought their measuring sticks or tapes to the attic as well.
Can someone please comment on how the questioned attic board would have looked to the observer as of this date? I'm just guessing that law enforcement might have left it in three segments: Rail 16 replaced over where it allegedly came from; S-226, having been supposedly ripped off by hand, now replaced over its alleged original location, and a small segment with a jagged edge remaining on the opposite side (with repect to Rail 16) after S-226 was ripped off. Please correct me if I am wrong.
Gardner mentions several issues that the two sides quarreled over during this scene. They included (1) the width of Rail 16, which may have been too wide to match S-226; (2) The number of nail holes in S-226, which may have been too many to match Rail 16; and (3) the possible lack of "centering" of the entire board, the significance which I don't quite get.
Comments on this entire event are most welcome.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2016 0:03:16 GMT -5
Hi Hurtelable, The wood evidence in this case is not an area I can really address well so I won't try. I will post the link here to Fulton Oursler's article on that visit to Hauptmann's attic just in case you might not have seen it. www.lindberghkidnappinghoax.com/ourslerattic.pdfI am also going to link an attic picture that shows rail 16 from the ladder positioned on the right and board S 226 (attic floor board) on the left. You can see the one inch gap that is missing between these boards. That would be the joining piece that would connect the two boards. This piece was never recovered. I believe a drawing was made to show how the grain would have connected the two boards since they did not have the actual piece. www.patfullerton.com/1e/pictures/ladderatticmatch1.jpgThe other item I am posting is a comparison chart which is supposed to show how the grain on the ends of the boards matches between S 226 and rail 16. I found the way this was created and used in court to be questionable when I read the trial testimony surrounding it. www.patfullerton.com/1e/pictures/ladderrailmatch1.jpg
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