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Post by Wayne on Nov 7, 2021 13:40:52 GMT -5
Michael, I'm simply asking questions. Isn't that the point of a discussion board? I'll have to disagree with you here. This isn't a discussion - not really. You are asking questions, get answers, then engage in a word search. If you don't find them you reload and ask different questions hoping to find them in the next reply. You aren't considering the content, or evaluating the impact they have on your position. Instead you are throwing everything at the wall, to include the kitchen sink, hoping something will stick. Anything I say that upsets it is of no consequence. Again, what was the reasoning for Condon, Reich, and Coleman to retrieve the box later? Why did they need to do that? Asked and answered. To support my point above, I've already said that I'm not sure "who" retrieved the box. And yet, you pose this question as if I had. So you didn't pay attention to my answer and tells me you aren't really interested in what I have to say. So what's the point in continuing? Good point. Adios Pal. Good luck.
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Post by Sherlock on Nov 7, 2021 16:06:10 GMT -5
Hi aaron, Re your comment: "The box may never have left the cemetery at all." I always found it suspicious and surprising that the dimensions of the box were specified on one of the ransom notes. You would think the extortionist wouldn't care how the money was delivered. He could even bring along his own bag. Specifying the dimensions of the box suggests to me a pre-planned pre-dug hiding place close to the handover point in the cemetery. A location that was also chosen by the bad guy. With the handover completed and Condon on his way back to Lindbergh in the car, the box+ money would be dropped into a pre-dug hole on a particular grave (just the right size), covered with turf and retrieved when convenient. That way, in the event of a trap, CJ has nothing incriminating on his person. If CJ was detained for a short time by the police his confederate(s) would know where CJ had put the cash and could retrieve it. As you say, the box may still be there! Best regards, Sherlock
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Post by aaron on Nov 8, 2021 8:00:46 GMT -5
Excellent Analysis! The specifications concerning the size of the box with drawing, etc. had a purpose. iI may have related to the personality of the kidnapper who usually planned in measurements and sizes and wanted to make sure that the box was large enough so the bills would fit. If that was true, then the extra $20,000 might not have fit into the box, an important omission. The 20,000 was added early enough to be planned for accommodation. A wooden box would be strong enough to withstand the weather and avoid deterioration. So, as you suggest, the spot was preplanned and the box interred after the money was removed. If discovered, it could make incriminating evidence for a case against someone. It's difficult to dismiss Condon from the planning of this scenario. He must have involved more than he admitted, and not just following the kidnappers' directions. The gang was in contact with him and giving him details that he could not admit. Thank you for your response, Sherlock.
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Post by Sherlock on Nov 8, 2021 11:24:30 GMT -5
Hi aaron, Thanks for your reaction to my musings! And you raise a point I had overlooked. Indeed a wooden box would have the strength and resistance to weather/moisture needed if short-term burial was planned. Or it may have been put under a loose marble slab on a grave. Yes, I used to see Condon as a vainglorious, self-important but essentially harmless old duffer. Not anymore. He's a sinister old devil and it wouldn't surprise me if the kidnappers/extortionists had selected him as intermediary and told him so even before his grandstanding letter appeared in the Bronx Home News. It may have been this initial contact which prompted his letter, showing how self-sacrificing and righteous he was. It explains the slim chance that the bad guys would spot Condon's note in their local paper if there had been no prior communication. Best regards, Sherlock
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Post by Sherlock on Nov 8, 2021 12:04:59 GMT -5
The cemetery scenario reminds me of the Sergio Leone western "The good, the bad, and the ugly" with Clint Eastwood, Lee van Cleef, and Eli Wallach. One guy knows only the name on the grave where the money is buried. Another knows only which cemetery its in. Clint sorts it out after much gunfire!
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Post by aaron on Nov 8, 2021 14:23:53 GMT -5
I agree completely. The kidnapper(s) did not tell anyone the whole story, which served as an armor for him (them). Condon must have agreed to his role before the letter appeared in the Bronx newspaper. He also knew that the $20,000 would not be accepted before the meeting at St. Raymond's. The box would not accommodate the additional money, and Condon left that packet with Lindbergh in the car. The kidnapper (or rep) quickly agreed to omit the extra $20,000. This must have been prearranged as "number one" did not appear to OK the omission. The kidnappers may have caught on to the types of bills Irey included in that bundle and did not want to take any chance in getting caught with them. Condon made the situation look as if he was the hero of the day, having saved Lindbergh so much money, but this was likely all pre-planned. Regards to you, Sherlock, for your insights and contributions.
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Post by aaron on Nov 8, 2021 14:40:26 GMT -5
The answer to the $20,000 puzzle might be simply that since it could not fit into the box, it could not be buried or hidden with the rest of the money and so had to be rejected. Condon would have been told this before the meeting at St. Raymond. The $20,000 was kept in a separate packet that would not be so durable as the wood or resistant to moisture and deterioration.
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Post by Sherlock on Nov 8, 2021 16:25:26 GMT -5
That's a good point about the $20,000. The box dimensions, if I'm right, were given when $50,000 was to be the total ransom payment. Its always been suspicious that CJ apparently had the authority to immediately accept Condon's plea of Lindbergh's lack of funds and take $50,000 instead of the $70,000 demanded. On a lighter note, I think Dr Condon missed his true calling by going into education. Instead he should have been a stage conjurer or illusionist. It would provide the audience approval he craved, night after night as he toured the country. And he would have a platform to demonstrate his undoubted skills for illusion, deception and misdirection.
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Post by trojanusc on Nov 8, 2021 18:19:38 GMT -5
The answer to the $20,000 puzzle might be simply that since it could not fit into the box, it could not be buried or hidden with the rest of the money and so had to be rejected. Condon would have been told this before the meeting at St. Raymond. The $20,000 was kept in a separate packet that would not be so durable as the wood or resistant to moisture and deterioration. I'm baffled as to why you believe the money would be buried or hidden, when there is no evidence of this. We also know Condon took an unnecessary detour down Tremont, the same direction which the lookout was heading. Condon's reason for this detour varied depending on when he was asked. This leads one to believe that he perhaps met with the kidnapper further down Tremont, transferred the money there and then walked back towards & down Whittemore, box still in hand, where he took his time and ultimately hid it in the bushes. We know Condon hid the box in the bush and had it retrieved later. By doing this the extortionists were long gone, the police were looking for a box that both did not match the description Condon gave and, even so, he could could ensure it was destroyed (or properly hidden). As far as the $20K - I believe this was supposed to be Condon's cut but at some point he decided not to take the money (likely once knowing the baby was dead) and instead returned it to CAL.
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Post by aaron on Nov 8, 2021 19:11:07 GMT -5
Condon's description of the box did vary from time to time. He described the various woods that supposedly were used in its construction and claimed that he wanted it made that way because it resembled a ballot box. Does anyone know of an old ballot box that fits this description? He once said that the box was a family heirloom. Then, to compound the problem, a cabinet maker named Abe Samuelsohn,said that he made the box at Condon's request for a little over three dollars. Samuelsohn also said that Hauptmann asked that he build a ladder given only a day or two notice. So now we have who said what. Question: Why would anyone ask a cabinet maker to build a ladder? And how could this be produced in so short a time? Perhaps Sherlock could comment on this question since I know very little about building ladders but would suggest that this is unlikely, given Samuelsohn's expertise,and the turn-around time is so tight.The ransom box is evidence, however, and if found it could be used to help build a case against one of the perpetrators. Whatever its construction, it was intended to "disappear" and so was never found despite the copy of the box or its photo found in the NHSP collection. The extra $20,000 was most likely added because the kidnappers were annoyed with the delay and raised the price to speed the matter along. If further delay occurred, the price would have been raised to $100,000. The kidnappers wanted to get the money ASAP and exit the scene since the baby had died, making it a capital crime. Condon was not looking for money, not this personality: he wanted admiration and attention, to be the savior of this child and restore him to his blessed mother (like the Virgin Mary at the crucifixion of her son). Condon's reward? He would be satisfied with a public thank-you note from the Lindberghs or a large banquet, or an award from the President of the U.S. He had a scrapbook exhibiting his awards, and this one would be the crowning glory.
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Post by trojanusc on Nov 8, 2021 19:55:38 GMT -5
The extra $20,000 was most likely added because the kidnappers were annoyed with the delay and raised the price to speed the matter along. If further delay occurred, the price would have been raised to $100,000. The kidnappers wanted to get the money ASAP and exit the scene since the baby had died, making it a capital crime. Condon was not looking for money, not this personality: he wanted admiration and attention, to be the savior of this child and restore him to his blessed mother (like the Virgin Mary at the crucifixion of her son). Condon's reward? He would be satisfied with a public thank-you note from the Lindberghs or a large banquet, or an award from the President of the U.S. He had a scrapbook exhibiting his awards, and this one would be the crowning glory. Condon wanted to be a hero, sure, but he was also putting himself at substantial legal risk to play both sides of this extortion. $20K and the chance to be a hero was probably a good deal. You don't think it's awfully convenient that the kidnappers added $20K to take on another man, then when Condon finds out the baby's return is not imminent he happens to return that exact same amount? His job was not to barter or bargain with the kidnappers, it was to be the intermediary and do as they say.
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Post by aaron on Nov 8, 2021 20:21:49 GMT -5
Thank you for your response. The ransom note requesting the additional $20,000 says that because of the delay they must take another "person"; they do not say "man." The implication is that they must take on another person to care for the child, probably other nurses in addition to the two "ladys" already engaged. Now we know this is probably not true as the child may already have died. The kidnappers have upped the amount because of the delay and want to get the money as quickly as possible in order the make a quick exit. In another ransom letter they state that the amount will be increased by another $30,000. to make it $100,000) if the ransom is not paid by April 8. Upping the ante is their method of getting Lindbergh to act more quickly.
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Post by trojanusc on Nov 8, 2021 20:26:00 GMT -5
Thank you for your response. The ransom note requesting the additional $20,000 says that because of the delay they must take another "person"; they do not say "man." The implication is that they must take on another person to care for the child, probably other nurses in addition to the two "ladys" already engaged. Now we know this is probably not true as the child may already have died. The kidnappers have upped the amount because of the delay and want to get the money as quickly as possible in order the make a quick exit. In another ransom letter they state that the amount will be increased by another $30,000. to make it $100,000) if the ransom is not paid by April 8. Upping the ante is their method of getting Lindbergh to act more quickly. I could buy that, if isolated. What troubles me is that Condon, whose job was not to barter or haggle, but rather simply to deliver what was asked for, had $70,000 ready to hand over - yet somehow "talked them down" $20K. That's preposterous for three reasons: 1) All of this work, they have all the leverage yet somehow they acquiesce to this polite request because Condon says times are hard? Puh-lease! 2) Condon wants all the fame and glory. How would it look for Condon if he tried to haggle them and they walked away from the negations or demanded more? It was a massive risk that I do not believe he was willing to take were it not certain that he knew the $20K was disposable. 3) Condon somehow picks the exact number that it was previously increased by (to take on "another person") AND the exact number of the largest, most traceable bills? Unlikely. Especially when you realize that is likely when he learned there would be no baby ever returned. All of this added to his bait and switch with the ransom payment, the lies about the box and his onstant, constant lying about everything equals a man who was up to his eyeballs.
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Post by aaron on Nov 9, 2021 3:03:07 GMT -5
You make good points here. There are still other possibilities though. The kidnappers' rep. CJ all too readily agreed to accept the original $50,000. He had already said that he was not "number one" or even "number two" and so had no real authority to negotiate. All this had been settled beforehand, and Condon knew it. He was just playing along and trying to make of himself some kind of hero for saving Lindbergh money. So now the question is "Why did the kidnappers decide not to accept the additional $20,000?" Could they have known this money could be easily traced? Because it did not fit in the ransom box that had a certain destiny? The money was hot and they could not find someone to launder that much so quicly?
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Post by aaron on Nov 9, 2021 3:24:59 GMT -5
Let me add by way of explanation: The additional $20,000 were all in fifty dollar gold certificates which were easy to identify and tracce. This was Elmer Irey's idea, and he was disappointed that the money was returned. Condon may not have known this, or perhaps he did--or someone did, and the kidnappers did not want to take the chance if the money was accepted.
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Post by Sherlock on Nov 9, 2021 3:38:34 GMT -5
Hi trojanusc, You are right that there is absolutely no evidence that the ransom box, with or without the money, was hidden or buried. Just as there is no evidence supporting what Condon did on his detour out of sight in the darkness down Tremont. It may indeed have been a bait and switch operation with Condon hiding the box for retrieval later as you say. These are alternative theories. I just read "The Kidnap Years" about the kidnap epidemic in the US in the early 1930's. Many cases are covered and the only one where the kidnappers specify the actual dimensions of the container in which the ransom is to be delivered is the Lindbergh case. There must be a reason for this precision. Maybe the note was written by someone familiar with woodwork and measurements (Hauptmann?) and out of habit he specified the dimensions. But it could indicate a pre-planned temporary hiding place, already prepared, for the box with or without the cash. Again, there's no solid evidence for this but any alternative suggestions as to why the box dimensions were specified so carefully would be welcome. Best regards, Sherlock
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Joe
Lt. Colonel
Posts: 2,653
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Post by Joe on Nov 9, 2021 7:50:13 GMT -5
Just so everyone's able to remain focused on facts and not speculation, here are the first three ransom notes which followed the Nursery Note. You'll find everything you need to know about the fact Hauptmann probably realized he'd undervalued his kidnapping job and so decided to up the amount to $70,000, (before Condon penned his letter to the Bronx Home News) Hauptmann's (not Irey's) choice of ensuring the added amount was in $50 bills, Hauptmann believing the entire $70,000 would fit into his specified "packet" dimensions.. and much much more. Enjoy!
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Joe
Lt. Colonel
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Post by Joe on Nov 9, 2021 7:53:11 GMT -5
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Joe
Lt. Colonel
Posts: 2,653
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Post by Joe on Nov 9, 2021 7:54:01 GMT -5
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Post by Michael on Nov 9, 2021 8:41:36 GMT -5
As it relates to the box requested in the note, the design does appear, at first blush, to indicate there's a reason or purpose for it. But once we see the ultimate conclusion to this event, its clear to me the intent was to lay the groundwork for this hustle. It puts the money in this box, therefore, the box equals the money. So when a box is seen, all eyes will be on it. But when the box is found, its empty and the money went in the opposite direction. Nothing here was ad libbed. Just look at the symbol. This too appeared to be a simple identifier but turned out to be anything but. Think about how much thought went into it. Next, just look at the layout of the Ransom Drop. The positioning of the note under the rock near Bergens, the place where that puts the car. What can and cannot be seen from that vantage point. The NJSP noticing the "peculiar & accurate synchronization" between Jafsie and the Look-Out based on their investigations (V2,248). There's a lot going on that shows the degree of planning involved here.
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Post by aaron on Nov 10, 2021 2:41:42 GMT -5
The ransom box also resembles some of the wooden containers which are used for cremated remains. It is larger than most but had to be constructed for the bills to fit inside. If the wooden box were buried in the cemetery then, the appearance would not be unusual for a container intended for human remains despite the size. The box may have been interred in the cemetery following the transaction.
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Post by Sherlock on Nov 10, 2021 3:00:01 GMT -5
Hi Aaron, Thanks for inviting my “expertise” on ladder-building however I’m sure you know as much, or as little, as myself about it! I do agree that a carpenter rather than a cabinet-maker would be the preferred choice.
Your post mentions that Hauptmann asked Samuelsohn to build a ladder for him at short notice. In all my reading on the case I haven’t come across this before. Can you let us know the source of this?
I always find the very idea of building a home-made ladder for such an enterprise to be unlikely. Joined sections of a store -bought ladder would be (1) reliable (2) commercial, common, and untraceable (3) transportable (stacked). Why build something unique and therefore potentially traceable when a commercial ladder is one of thousands, all identical? But I digress.
Best regards, Sherlock
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Post by aaron on Nov 10, 2021 7:47:20 GMT -5
I think your questions are spot on, Sherlock. Abe Samuelsohn, a carpenter in the Bronx, came forward during the Hauptmann trial to claim that he built the ladder at the request of Richard Hauptmann. Articles in newspapers reported this though Samuelsohn was not asked to testify. The New York Times and the Boston Post ran articles on Jan. 14, 1935. He was also supposed to be the person Condon contacted to build the ransom box. Lloyd Gardner refers to him as "Frank" Samuelsohn in "The Case That Never Dies." There was a thread called "Ladder Building" on the LK Discussion Board in May of 2006 on which a relative of Samuelsohn named Susan Candy posted details concerning the building of the box and the ladder. I am not trying to verify any of this but just give you some information re: sources. If you have some thoughts regarding the sources after studying them, please let us know. Best regards, Aaron
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Post by aaron on Nov 10, 2021 8:06:15 GMT -5
The name of the Boston newspaper that printed the Samuelsohn story was the "Boston Globe"--not the "Boston Post."
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Post by Sherlock on Nov 10, 2021 11:32:45 GMT -5
Hi Aaron, Thanks for your prompt response to my query about Mr Samuelsohn. I must have read about him in "The case that never dies" but that was some time ago and it slipped my mind. I will look it up again. Not surprising that he wasn't called to testify for the prosecution because they wanted to portray Hauptmann as the ladder-builder via Kohler's "attic plank" evidence. Best regards, Sherlock
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Post by Sherlock on Nov 15, 2021 5:29:14 GMT -5
Hi aaron,
You will recall our earlier discussion about the kidnapper/extortionist specifying the dimensions of the ransom box and that this may suggest a pre-planned, pre-prepared hiding place for it.
I came across the following in Dr Condon’s trial testimony. Wilentz reads the ransom note which Condon received on about April 1st:
“Have the money ready by Saturday evening. We will inform you how and where to deliver it. We want you to put it is (sic) a certain place. There is no fear that anybody else will take it. We watch everything closely. Please let us know if you agree…… It is a very simple delivery but we find out very soon if there is any trap..”
This shows a remarkable improvement in the writer’s English compared to the note left only four weeks earlier in the nursery! But it also supports the idea of a pre-planned hiding place: “We want you to put it is (should be ‘in’) a certain place” does not indicate to me a face-to-face handover but a pre-planned location where the box is to be left.
“There is no fear that somebody else will take it” suggests a secure hiding place known only to the writer.
“It is a very simple delivery but we find out very soon if there is any trap” suggests that hiding the box/money temporarily is a precaution against the extortionist being caught red-handed with the money in a “trap.”
If we believe Condon’s testimony he didn’t in fact “put it in a certain place” as requested but there was a direct exchange of the box for the note. This does not of course rule out CJ himself putting the box in the hiding place.
Michael has suggested the alternative scenario of a “bait and switch” in which the money and the box go their separate ways. This is quite plausible especially taking Condon’s duplicity into account but it doesn’t explain the specifying of the box dimensions.
Maybe the “hiding place” plan was replaced by the “bait and switch” at the last minute. But I do believe that this note from CJ indicates his intention to hide the box. Whether it actually transpired in that way on the night is another matter.
I hope you find this interesting.
Best regards,
Sherlock
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Post by aaron on Nov 15, 2021 7:22:29 GMT -5
Your comments are very perceptive, Sherlock, and I have not seen this analysis anywhere else. The kidnapper(s) had trouble collecting the ransom at Woodlawn, and their representative CJ should have left the scene immediately when he discovered that Condon was empty-handed. Not only so, but CJ sat with Condon for over an hour giving out information while the kidnappers were probably listening and seething but could not stop the conversation. They would not risk another similar situation at St. Raymond's. Their note following the meeting at Woodlawn indicates frustration: they would not allow their man to "confer" as before. Yet they would not want to speak with Condon directly themselves for fear of being identified later. The hiding of the box holding the ransom money and a later pickup would eliminate the risk of further conversation and possible identification. CJ might not have been present at St. Raymond's at all. In fact, Condon may not have met with anyone but simply placed the box in its assigned hiding place. This is not to suggest that the kidnappers were not there. Condon would have been closely watched from the time he left his house to his departure from St. Raymond's. The story of his discussion and shaking hands through the bush may have been a fairy tale which he created or which he was directed to testify by the kidnappers who evidently had some control over him as well as control of the situation. If this is true, then the story of the $20,000 willingly subtracted from the amount had already been agreed upon. It is suspicious that CJ would have so willingly accepted to eliminate the $20,000 from the total as he had no real authority to do so--he had mentioned a "number one" and a "number two" at the earlier meeting. So at St. Raymond's the kidnappers watch as Condon places the box in the assigned hiding place which only he knows about. Then when they have assured themselves that there is no "trap" and no one is watching, they take the money and hide the box, perhaps burying it (in a burial plot?). The kidnappers would not take a chance that anyone could identify the box if it were found. The ransom notes are yet another story. I had maintained that the notes contain two levels of diction, indicating the work of two persons, one the writer with a German background, poorly educated in German as well as in English and a second who can use words of more than one syllable accurately in context and correctly spelled, words like "conference," "arrangements," etc. The ransom notes were composed with the assistance of a second person, at least at some point, and perhaps dictated by him. Thank you for your post, Sherlock. This is leading us, I believe, in the right direction.
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Post by Sherlock on Nov 15, 2021 8:32:34 GMT -5
Hi aaron, Thanks for your kind remarks. You have also raised some extremely interesting points. As you imply, we have only Dr Condon's word that he met anyone in St Raymond's cemetery disappearing as he did into the darkness out of view. It may have been Condon, the great deceiver, who shouted "Hey, Doc" to simulate the presence of CJ in the cemetery. It would explain Lindbergh, in his car, claiming to hear those words as Condon was at that point closer to the car than an imaginary CJ inside the cemetery. CJs on-the-spot decision to settle for $20,000 less than the $70,000 is suspicious as you say. The only circumstance in which he would have the authority to do this would be if he was a "lone wolf" extortionist or had maybe one partner who wouldn't complain. The talk of No 1 and No 2 could be bluff, as indeed the note giving the child's location, " being cared for by two women", turned out to be. Document analysis in the UK by linguists concluded that the ransom notes were written by an English native speaker who tried to simulate German syntax and word patterns. The later notes abandon the crude construction of the nursery note and are much improved but the evidence of the English mother tongue is still there. Much to think about! Best regards, Sherlock
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Post by aaron on Nov 15, 2021 11:30:36 GMT -5
Hi, Sherlock: Once again, thank you for your comments and insight. Lindbergh did hear someone call out to Dr. Condon at St. Raymond's. He identified the voice in his testimony as Hauptmann's, which did not help the BRH case any. There may have been then an individual Condon met at St. Raymond's whether he was the first CJ or some other. I do not recall if Lindbergh actually saw the person who called out. I would think that a scene in which Condon called out to himself would be a bit of a stretch, but the interchange would be carefully observed by members of the kidnapping gang. The man who Condon said shook hands wih him with the hedge between them may not have been the first CJ. I find the story of the shaking hands through the hedge is odd under the circumstances. The note concerning the location of the child on a mysterious boat was supposedly given at this time. Obviously the note had to come from somewhere; it may have been given to Condon earlier. As for the ransom notes, as you must know, numbers of dialects which deviate from the standard language do occur. Most persons think of accents when confronted with the problem of dialect, but the vocabulary will differ from place to place, and the syntax can vary also. My family emigrated to the US in the early 1900s and spoke a dialect to a point that they could not be understood by someone who emigrated from a province from some distance away. After a few years in this country they spoke what they themselves called a "hard-boiled" English, a combination of English and their original language--which they understood, if no one else.The writing on the table found in South Plainfield has also been analyzed and thought to be written by someone with an imperfect knowledge of the German language. I am not disputing the statement but will suggest again the problem of a dlalect merged with some knowledge of English as it is spoken in this country. One could merge the two in his constructions and syntax of the sentences he was trying to write in German. I'll stop here for now. Thanks again.
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Post by Sherlock on Nov 15, 2021 16:31:25 GMT -5
Hi aaron, The handover of the money was, for me, the moment of supreme danger for CJ. He had to take all precautions against being caught red-handed with the box/cash. It would also help if he had no direct contact with Condon on this occasion. The whole tone of the ransom note read out by Wilentz at the trial indicates a planned 'leave it and we'll pick it up later' scenario. Condon's progress into the cemetery would be closely observed by CJ with or without associates. Either the note about the boat "Nelly" was left for Condon at the designated spot or, as you say, he may have had it with him already. I don't think Lindbergh, in the car, observed the handshake over the hedge, so again we have only Condon's word for it. I agree that the idea of Condon calling out to himself is a stretch but if CJ wanted no potentially incriminating contact with Condon that night it is still a possibility. And it fits with Condon's lying, obfuscation and deception throughout the case. Its true that when we think of languages we have only the standard "official" language in mind without taking into account local dialect which can often be so different that it is almost a different language altogether. This makes identification of the nationality/ ethnicity of the note-writer(s) especially difficult. It was very interesting to read of the experience of your parents as recent immigrants to the USA. Best regards, Sherlock
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