jack7
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Post by jack7 on Jul 19, 2009 22:03:26 GMT -5
Hey Rick and Kevkon: Now we're getting some nitty gritty, and about a major issue. Lets take a few salient issues. The man who uncovered the baby's face said it turned black within a few minutes - why wasn't the rest of the body black? I'm not implying he was wrong just stating that the rest of the body, if it was floating in a stream, would have been under similar conditions. Also, it seems that as far as checking that particular area, a stream would be far easier to check than dense woods, so who knows, but the stream may well have been checked, and realistically not very far for the body to go in the stream. The body was upon leaves - would the swelling stream waters have left leaves for it to lay upon? Regarding bring the body back, there is no way as a loner BRH would have risked that. After reading quite a bit of Rick's conclusions lately it certainly seems the F-bomb. Now if it was to get Capone out of jail - Capone was sunk by then so that doesn't ring true. The Nazis, perhaps in co-ordination with the mob, would make sense. They would be saying, hey play ball or your momma is next, then your wife. And so CAL did. Always look for a winner in true crime.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Jul 20, 2009 7:37:48 GMT -5
I would say that when organized crime ( in any of it's manifestations) wants to make a statement, they do it without reservation. If that body was meant to be discovered, the mob would have had no problem with leaving it at Lindbergh's doorstep. But if you guys see some intent of discovery with the location off in the woods, so be it.
The more important issue is the degree of decomposition and that's why I'm so eager to get more detail from Rick on this.
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Post by Michael on Jul 21, 2009 6:09:37 GMT -5
Kevin, I've been researching your theory concerning the body having possibly been in the water. What I found is that something (which they referred to as "slip-skin") was a condition not found on the corpse. Since this was 1932 I wanted to double check this finding somehow.
This lead me to look into other conditions a body might reveal from being submerged and I compared that to "our" corpse. I don't see any evidence that the corpse had been under water.
Do me a favor and re-check my research. I don't want to eliminate a theory prematurely.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Jul 21, 2009 8:11:23 GMT -5
www.dundee.ac.uk/forensicmedicine/notes/water.pdfWhat I have read and been told is that some effects may or may not be observed and conditions vary with exposure. Note the condition of the face and bodies that are face down in water. Like I said though, this is not a subject that I in any way claim to be well versed in. If your findings are completely in disagreement then by all means scuttle the theory. Perhaps Rick will expound on his findings regarding the decomposition being at odds with the exposure in that environment.
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Post by Michael on Jul 21, 2009 17:12:51 GMT -5
There's nothing in that I disagree with. I certainly only know what I've read and what's in the documentation. That's why I am asking for anything to upset what I've found in order for their to be checks and balance to this.
There's a lot going on with this corpse that doesn't seem to follow the normal patterns of decomposition.
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Post by rick3 on Jul 22, 2009 4:03:00 GMT -5
Kevin--I plan to rely on the enigmatic quotes AND experience of DR CHARLES H. MITCHELL-- the attending autopsy physician/coroner of Mercer County:
..."the body shows evidence of prolonged exposure and usual decomposition that would occur in the course of two or three months time depending on climatic conditions that might produce such results"
..."diagnosis of the cause of death is a fractured skull due to external violence:."
..."Mitchell didnt see how the body could be identified by anyone due to the decomposition and certain missing members"....and this sentiment is clearly echoed by DR. PHILIP VAN INGEN who refused to say or tesitify under oath for $10,000,000 bucks that the body was that of Charles Lindbergh Jr...and thanks to Reilly's Concession Van Ingen was never called by Prosecution to do so?
[Kev--the dogs chase the bones--the squirrels chase the nuts]
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Jul 22, 2009 7:09:30 GMT -5
Rick, isn't that at odds with what you said about the state of decomposition? As for the id of the body, to suspect that it was not the Lindbergh child I would think that there would have to be good reason. What evidence exists that would cause such doubt? Are you suggesting that someone found a very similar child, killed it, dressed it, and dumped it there in the hope that some passing motorist would happen upon it? Sorry Rick, I didn't realize I was "badgering" you. Oh yeah, since you are held in such high esteem by the "real" CAL Jr perhaps you can get the whole scoop on what really happened. It sure would save a lot of time. Sorry Michael, I guess you are going to have to find a new crime to research.
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Jul 22, 2009 20:20:19 GMT -5
Was Dr. Mitchell taking into account territorial issues regarding the condition of the body? I have a small dog who would rip that body to shreds in probably ten minutes - they play with it, pretending it's an enemy or something, and cats do the same thing. That's to say nothing about the potential in that area of cougars, wolves, skunks, weasels, even bears. The only way that body of CALjr. could have stayed in that condition in the woods for 72 days was if most of the time it was in a deep freeze zone and under some earth - neither was correct. Even submerged for say 60 or so days, and protected by the bag, little fishes and snakes and worms are there eating. Would have probably come out a skeleton. The exposed face surely would have been long gone. Seems the body was dumped and separated from the bag and the bag left as a locater (phony recovery? - has to be!), and likely the body was not in the woods more than a couple days. Reason it was brought back? F-Bomb!
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Post by rick3 on Jul 23, 2009 21:10:59 GMT -5
Jack--good post! I think you hit this one out of the Hunterdon County Ballpark! Its the penultimate Catch 22: - If lil Charlie Jr is frozen solid under the snow for 2+ months--how is he going to have time to become excessively decomposed and devoured?
- If lil Charlie is just laying there to decay and be some polecats dinner for 72 days--then how can there be anything leftover to find on May 12th?
- I'm ready to move on and try and figure out who has stones the size of Montana and decides to bring him back to Hopewell and dump and him along the road in May? Maybe we can find someone inside Mercer County--maybe even a local? Why May 12th? Sure some animal may have drug him there where he was found--but only for a few days....not 2-3 months.
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Jul 24, 2009 4:38:03 GMT -5
Rick - The question now is who would F-Bomb CAL? Lets say BRH brought the body back, there would be a big why, unless, as I've always suspecteted Hauptman was a sleeper Nazi agent. Hauptmann did walk out of jail in Germany and was able to serupticously board a trans Atlantic ship and enter the United States illegaly - how many people have ever done all of that? Anyone? And H survived very well once he got here and settled and sleepered? So when they needed him he was there - and got the job done. Probably many Germans were involved, but as we've seen the German community was as close knit as all communities were in those days and didn't talk much. So BRH builds the ladder for someone else to use (although I believe he gave them a ladder he had already made for a construction ladder) and writes the notes and gets his part of the ransome money, but was he physically involved more than that in the crime? He may have been one CJ, but I believe CJ was two people and BRH was only one (and that simply to get the ransome money - his pay). Does who brought the body back or where it had been really matter? It was the F-Bomb and to my mind the only element which could have gained by bringing the body back at that time was Nazi.
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Post by rick3 on Jul 24, 2009 7:48:49 GMT -5
Hi Jack--well we must be making progress or the Board wouldnt be under attack? eg noone would care/
I figure that the Mob/Mafia--you know the one that FBI Dir JE Hoover said did not exist until 1954--was running the USA during Prohibition. Pols cops judges mayors governors all on the take.
In the start of the LKH it was assumed that a gang or mob stole charlie to get Capone out of jail..the key month being March/April 1932.
So, we might not end up here, but we might start here. JFC needs a body guard and everyone is scart of someone or something. I would think that these guys would be capapble of droppping the F-bomb if CAL wont deal with them? The rookies in St. Raymonds and a meagre $50K dont cut the real price required to secure Charlies safe return....more like 10X that.
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Jul 24, 2009 11:43:39 GMT -5
Hey Rick- How does the mob gain anything by bringing the body back? Of course they may have realised gains that we don't know about, but I can't really think of an example. Maybe the mob (Italians) were working with the Nazis even then - I suspected that, but for a non-political issue. Hitler designed his government based on Mussolini's. The kidnapping was just a fascist thing!
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Post by Michael on Jul 24, 2009 15:29:09 GMT -5
I think the bottom line is, without getting distracted, is that a corpse sitting in the woods since March 1st doesn't stay in its grave for long. It gets ravaged by wildlife looking for food.
Believe me, these woods are to this day filled with animals that would tear the baby apart. In a matter of weeks there would be very little of him left. His face? Are you kidding? His liver? Long gone by May 12th. This was a very shallow grave, and the smell of death would have attracted Turkey Buzzards, Fox, Wild Dogs, Domestic Dogs, Skunks - you name it - they would all get involved.
What the evidence seems to show, in my opinion, is that animals just got started on him.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Jul 24, 2009 16:18:15 GMT -5
I mostly agree with Michael with the exception of the grave. Had there been an actual grave, the body may have been protected from the wildlife. But there wasn't one where the body was found. In that repose the body would have been picked clean by carrion bird in no time. I've seen whole deer reduced to a skeleton in 3 or 4 days. As for the body being brought back, I guess it's a possibility though I can't see any point to it. Realistically I think the idea of the body being meant to be found is unsound. That location is just not a spot to place the body if you want it to be found. So what's left?
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Post by rick3 on Jul 24, 2009 17:25:46 GMT -5
kevin....I agree with your analysis. Once the body gets too far from the road.....or the farther it gets from the road...the chances of finding drop off foot by foot. Apparently, like everything else, noone can agree as to how many feet....30-75' is reasonable, hardly any further is believable. And did Allen cross sides of the road looking around?
But, all bets are off once you start to consider the condition, contents and location of the Burlap Feed Bag!
Two huge coincidences on the same road on the same day are too much to believe even for the LKC?
There have been numerous studies of the burlap bag. After all there is lettering and numbers on it. One researcher concluded it originated at Levinworth Kansas Federal Prison, but I know MM says not? But, by now someone should have said precisely where it was made and where it came from...ie lets trace the bag. One report said there was blood on it:
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Jul 24, 2009 23:55:33 GMT -5
Kevkon said earlier there was a bone in the bag. If it can be concluded that the body's only been there a couple days (which the above posts confirm), and that the bag is by the side of the road, and the body JUST HAPPENS to be found before it's eaten away, it only takes a couple duhs to realize that this is a set-up. And a couple more duhs and it is certain that this is a major threat to CAL. Play ball or we play with you and yours! Bringing the body back and having it found was the master stroke.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Jul 25, 2009 7:53:26 GMT -5
Jack, not so quick with the duhs. The bone found in the burlap bag was the right fifth metacarpal from the hand. As you probably know the body was found without the left hand, right arm, and left leg below the knee. Most of these bones were never recovered. But regarding the burlap bag it is important to note that only one bone from the hand is present while three others were found in soil and leaf clutter removed from the site where the body was found. So the idea that the bag was removed from the corpse and placed by the road must take into account the separation of those hand bones. I don't realistically see how that could occur if someone simply removed the body from the bag and placed the bag by the road. Add to that the missing bones and the fact that a burlap sack at that time was as common as a modern paper bag and the notion that the bag was a marker placed by the road purposefully seems pretty slim. What takes into account the missing clothing and bones? In what specific order did these events occur? For example, how was the sleeping suit removed from the body and when? Did removing the suit also take off the missing diapers while leaving the flannel undershirt and wool shirt? I think that may have been possible, but I don't know for certain. Anyone out there have some insight on this?
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Post by Michael on Jul 25, 2009 8:48:20 GMT -5
Couple of things....
The bag definitely did not have blood anywhere on it. According to my research it did not originate in Leavenworth.
The body was found - in what Inspector Walsh said - was a "shallow grave." I've seen it explained as if someone had "kick out" some dirt, put the baby in, then covered it with a little dirt, leaves, and twigs. There was also a claim by a Local man that he had been in that exact spot digging out soil for his plants. He claimed the child was placed into on of those holes.
We know that Allen saw the foot sticking out of the ground so by no means was this child buried in the sense one would expect when the term is used.
The body and the bag had to separate at some time, just as the body had to separate from the sleeping suit. The body would have to be removed from the bag if the sleeping suit was removed after the child was in the bag. At some point the thumb guard is removed. Was it the night of the kidnapping? That too must be taken into consideration. But let's be realistic, the diapers, and rubber pants never needed to be removed. Additionally, would anyone without a crystal ball know they would need a sleeping suit for identification purposes the night of the crime? Why bother to launder it?
I think the body needed to be revisited under the circumstances. If this is true then it dove-tails with the Police position that the body wasn't where it was found the night of the kidnapping.
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Jul 25, 2009 8:53:00 GMT -5
The duhs are correct. Don't make a tornado out of a termite!
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Jul 25, 2009 9:04:26 GMT -5
Jack, at this point I'd say that determining intent without explaining away troublesome details is more tornado like. You just can't overlook the small details. How would the hand bones become separated? Was the body skeletalized? No muscle, ligaments, flesh present to keep the hand together? Michael, as I asked ;could not the diapers have been removed ( inadvertently) when the sleeping suit was removed? I mean that isn't it possible that in the process of hastily taking off that suit the diapers were pulled off as well? Could that also explain the need to wash the suit? Anyone out there have more insight on that? I'd guess the thumb guards would come off at that time as well. I believe they were tied around the wrists on the outside of the suit.
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mairi
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Post by mairi on Jul 25, 2009 11:04:45 GMT -5
Re: rubber pants/double diapers Kevkon, Michael & Rick~~ Betty Gow said she pinned the double diapers to the undershirt. I'm guessing that was the "store bought" undershirt. Recently Michael posted a link which spoke of two(I think I recall) pieces of an undershirt, found. If these things come together does it suggest diapers being ripped off(?) by animals? If by human hands would it be more likely that the diapers were unpinned (?) Back when I was young, people still used those rubber pants. They were rather tedious to get on or off. Almost had to use hands to stretch them out for on and off. I wonder if animal teeth could just tear them off readily and as animals usually do, run with it(?)
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Jul 25, 2009 14:21:02 GMT -5
Well, Kevkon and Mairi, and Michael, you can talk and argue about it for another ninety years or make a decision. It's been over eighty years and you crimestoppers havn't even decided if the body was left or taken or even if it was the body. Plus you don't know if the ladder was a ladder or was made by a carpenter or was constructed by random chance (by God?). And you can't decide that, in spite of most of the money gone and Hauptmann spent a lot - what happened to all the ransom money! When will you come to some conclusions or is it that you dont want to? I like Kevkon - he is a friend of mine - but frankly his obscurities make about as much sense as kindergarten jive. Hey you guys - including Michael - listen to Rick and get a grip.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Jul 25, 2009 16:05:05 GMT -5
Obscurities?? Me?? I really take offense at that, Jack. Hey Jack, I get more frustrated then you will ever know with some of this stuff. It's only made worse by the interjection of complete nonsense that for one reason or another continues to be thrown out. I mean, it's kinda like the JFK assassination. How many times does the Dealey Plaza shot have to be re-created anyway? As for the ladder, there's not much mystery there for me. I think there is more than enough research on that subject available here and elsewhere for any who care to see. I know one thing for certain, we will be arguing for the next 90 yrs if in doing so we lose sight of the facts and evidence. There lie the answers. Take this latest thread for example, you have a single hand bone in a burlap sack. That's an indisputable fact. There are a finite number of ways that it could have come to be there while others remained near the body. So what are they? List them and then proceed. It's the only legitimate way of determining the truth behind what happened. I sincerely hope that I am proceeding in that manner.
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Jul 25, 2009 20:50:09 GMT -5
Like I said - I like you Kevkon. But why proceed down death row? The baby was killed to be killed OK - lets determine that. All the ladder falling apart and accidental stuff is just newspaper jive. So if the baby is killed to be killed there is only one solution to the crime. The ransom was simply an errant. So the entire intent was to drop an F-bomb on Col. Lindbergh. All this other stuff that's been mysteriously evading researchers is junk. Hope you can eventually see that Kevkon.
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Jul 26, 2009 3:38:02 GMT -5
Rick looks at Jack. Yup I think it's time Rick. Rick and Jack Terminate Michael and Kevkon - they wave good bye - "Call me..." while Rick looks into erotic symbols and Jack wonders where Barbie has went.
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Jul 26, 2009 5:58:25 GMT -5
I respectfully decline my sergeant's rating. I am a corporal - and corporals rule the world!
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Jul 26, 2009 6:09:46 GMT -5
Yes, Kevkon - you are a window of vague obscurities. You have it all, my friend, the answers and the questions, but you must put a handle on that which you have!
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Jul 26, 2009 7:55:32 GMT -5
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Jul 26, 2009 14:42:47 GMT -5
So. Kevkon, does that sound like the body might have been somewheres else when the sleeping suit was taken off? And perhaps the diapers stunk like most diapers so they were discarded? U got the logic man - use it! Ever think that the thumbguard was the first F-Bomb indicater or or? Get spellcheck on here Michael - I'm sick of the big book.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Jul 26, 2009 15:50:51 GMT -5
Sounds like you ( and Rick?) have the whole thing wrapped up. So when's the book coming out or are you going to leave Michael and I "adrift"? BTW, who did you finally decide was behind this crime, Capone, Hitler, Purple Gang, Lindy, rum runners, Condon, Red & Betty, or some other ?
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