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Post by Michael on Apr 30, 2008 6:08:35 GMT -5
Rick, what's the source for this? In Schippel's statement taken by Bornmann on May 17th, Schippel claims he was home in bed on the 1st but at the hospital on the 8th. Is it the FBI Summary? I agree with your points concerning "John" and the handwriting. It's what makes me think the Police, quite possibly, actually had a Confederate at one time. Here is Schippel's photo: Now how in God's name can Condon say Schippel didn't look like "John" but that Steiner did when he later condemns Hauptmann to the electric chair for being "John?" Jack, Val O'Farrell is worthy of mention if you ask me. Are there any points you want to make to undermine it? As far as Bornmann goes, he did a lot of leg-work in this case. However, I have major problems with some of his investigations, reports, and tactics. Pretending to be a Reporter, just as one example, in order to get information from a Lawyer representing a suspect is indicative of the "anything goes" mentality he possessed. I also firmly believe he perjured himself on the stand, as did many others, but to imply he shouldn't be scrutinized because you believe he was a good investigator is a mistake in my opinion. But again, that is just my opinion and I am open to anything you have to say about him. Good to have all of the new Members aboard!
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Apr 30, 2008 6:52:42 GMT -5
There's no reason anyone should listen to me. It's the evidence that they should listen to. I guess it's understandable Jack, for several reasons: - Examining evidence very closely is tedious and more importantly, the bulk of it points directly at one BRH. See no evil, hear no evil.
- The speculative posts are usually more entertaining.
- There is a phenomenon in which the event is eclipsed by something which reflects a larger social condition. In other words a predilection for conspiracy and complication. Perhaps the refusal to believe that one or two persons can change history is the root cause.
I disagree regarding the Ramsey case, it's much like the LKC. You should give it a closer look The JFK assassination conspiracy is a perfect example of what I said before. How many times does that shot have to be recreated ? The answer; it doesn't matter! That's because there are those who cannot and will not ever accept the fact that one lone assassin, a Marine marksman, made the shot, period. No recreations, no scientific evidence, no forensic science, no bullet entry/exit evidence will ever change their position that Oswald couldn't have done it.
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Post by rick3 on Apr 30, 2008 10:03:04 GMT -5
Hi Michael--great photo! As for which interview of Schippell:
Yes--it is the May 17th interview, 3 pages, signed by Bornmann. I will have to read it more carefully for his alibi. More on Charlie Schippell can be found here:
C. Lloyd Fischer/ The Case New Jersey Would Like to Forget/ Liberty Magazine/ Sept 12 1936/ Part Seven/ Conclusion. p 40:
"On June 4th, 1932, a high official* of the State of New Jersey reported on an investigation which had taken him to the little shack back of the Mount Rose Road: (eg *Squire Johnson)
"Suspicion was from the first centered on... (name omitted) =Charles G. Schippell.. He is a powerful man, probably of German extraction, and is psychopathic. He has unusual and weird obsessions and hallucinations and is possessed of a wild and violent temper."
"Then this official refers to a previous report in which he had expressed the opinion that the kidnap ladder had been "constructed by a left-handed person whose knowledge of stresses and tools was not great".
"This man [the occupant of the shack] is ambidextrous, and although he writes with his right hand, he uses a saw with his left hand. I know this from direct observations".
-----5 paragraphs omitted from report---
"This man is very familiar with tools and the ladder used was one such as he might construct."
" name omitted is evasive, crafty, cunning and from what information Mr. Dawes gives me, had been unable to establish an irrefutable alibi". "Copies of this officials report were forwarded to the then Gov. A. Harry Moore, who had first suggested this investigation , and to Col. Schwarzkopf.
"This was in May 1932. Four years later (name omitted) = Schippell was still at large; and on the night of March 31, 1936, when Hauptmann was supposed to have been electrocuted, he (CS) flew into a tantrum and raised such particular hell that friends and neighbors had to forcibly restrain him. When word of the 48 hour reprieve reached him, he quieted immediately and caused no more trouble."
"The night Hauptmann died, this man (eg Schippell) went completely off his head. Three days later he was removed to a hospital for the mentally deranged, where , I am informed he is still confined!" end quote. (Sept 1936)
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Post by jack7 on Apr 30, 2008 10:31:16 GMT -5
I have looked closely at Ramsey and yes, it is similar to LKC, and, guess what, Borden is very similar to OJ. But in each case, as you so competently expound about Lindbergh, there are solid solid clues. Chances are not everything about perfect crimes will ever be known because the only witness is dead - that's a big part of why they're perfect. Since you rebrought it up, and I listed it first, lets take Ramsey. Don Foster who is not just a handwriting expert (self-proclaimed gurus whose credentials are mainly that they pay for an association membership) but a linguist with psychology and concrete handwriting style (letter counts, vowels, writing patterns, etc.) to his credits. Foster originally said that Patsy Ramsey wrote the famous JonBenet note, then when the Ramseys hired him as a consultant, changed his tune and said that she didn't. Duh! Does that tell you there's some politics here? Also, after the Ramseys began praying with Detective Smit in his van, he became the biggest supporter of the intruder theory. The later opinions of Foster and Smit certainly obscure justice and are just a couple examples of things that could very likely be unknown to researchers. On to OJ which is similar to Borden because of blade, relative, etc. For one thing there is no blood trail to or from the Brentwood glove while there's plenty of blood other places. Whoever dropped the glove was not bleeding. Talk about BRH being setup, what appears to have happened to OJ? And who investigated the noise that Kato said he heard which led to finding the glove? Bingo! Again you have a tainted situation that is probably impossible to conclusively figure out, same as Lindbergh. A great part of BRH's supposed innocence is that he never confessed. Would anyone ever confess to that crime? For our generation it would have been akin to murdering JFKjr. or nowdays Miley Cyrus. If Richard would have confessed, he would have been lucky to survive the elevator ride back down to jail - killed while trying to escape by NY or NJ finest, and possibly correctly so. Delving into these crimes is certainly interesting, but it should be done with the basic premis which the facts actually lead to kept in mind. To say Bornmann was a crook and just let it go at that is probably true, but it opens up a very big can of worms. How about, since the buck stops here, going after the reputation of Bornmann's boss, the Col. I havn't heard of anybody chasing General Norman around trying to get at what could be the "Schwatrzkopf papers." Who's gonna try that - not me. It's interesting that so much is destroyed upon a person's death - I'm thinking mostly here of Ellis Parker Sr.'s papers - what's a couple more boxes in the garage when you have a very famous relative. It's much like treasure hunter stories where the guy who found it was going to tell where it was, but just happened to die at that exact moment. Ironically that happened in LKC and LB. Fisch, in Germany, was just going to tell all to Pincus when he died, and Bridget in Anaconda was just going to tell something about the Lizzie crime when she went into a coma (she recovered but evidently decided not to tell all - probably fearing the conspirators wandering around her Montana home.) So, Kevkon I guess like it or not, your calling has found you and you'll have to keep supporting the much too obvious. Again though, since 911 anything is possible, and finding spooks everywhere is certainly lots of fun. For Joe - Steve Thayer's book "Silent Snow" is interesting because of the Lindberg slant but nothing new in there. I still havn't found out if Steve Thayer is related to Robert and am not going to try very hard to. For Michael - GOOD JOB! I'm just a newbie here (I'm not a doctor or a lawyer but that doesn't stop me from giving medical and legal advice - why should I be different from everyone else), but am VERY impressed by this board. I've tried to get on here in the past through the hit on LKHF and it didn't work. I finally found you while reading "The Master Detective" by John Reisinger who mentions you and thanks you for your help, and a post at about the same time by Rita (is it politically correct to mention Rita? Of course it is) who directs viewers to one of your opening theses which, by the way, pretty much refutes her theory, but she directs them anyway. See - she's nice. How do I get to be a Commander like Kevkon - do you have the title of Fuehrer, that's what I'd really like.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Apr 30, 2008 15:10:58 GMT -5
I began to really appreciate the issues Det. Smit brought up in the Ramsey case. What I find interesting in comparing it with the LKC is the polar directions the police pursued in each. In the LKC the immediate family was not aggressively pursued, in the Ramsey case that pursuit became obsessive and probably destroyed any chance of finding the truth. Playing by the numbers works most of the time, but not always. Again, it's those small seemingly insignificant details that really count. Put them all together and the puzzle is revealed.
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Post by Michael on Apr 30, 2008 15:18:12 GMT -5
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Apr 30, 2008 20:33:47 GMT -5
For Kevkon: Yup, I certainly agree that each crime (LKC & Ramsey) was tainted in it's own way, and Borden was too. Borden is probably most interesting in that respect. I once posted that people must have known that crime was coming because within five minutes of its discovery a doctor showed up and within about ten minutes the State Medical Examiner "happened by and saw the commotion," and all this time three or four women were mostly alone in the house where a brutal ax murdered had just occurred with no fear of staying there. Borden was pretty easy to figure out - the main problem there is people don't want to figure it out. I certainly got riled for making that presumptous post anyway. Smit's claim to fame was finding what appear to be taser marks on JB's body. Good find of course, but he can't tell us who put them there. By his theory someone would have had to snuck in, gone up to JB's room, tasered her, brought her to the basement and because her mouth was covered stopped her from screaming, and ritually killed her - probably at least five, but more likely a ten or fifteen minute act. All this while three other people slept in the house, one a former naval officer, none particularly far from JB's room. Lots to consider including an unusual house layout, but I think the big issue is that few people would pull John Ramsey's daughter - way too much risk not only of capture, but of slow death! So if you throw that out you have control of the crime scene similar to LKC and lots of time for things to have gotten out of that house. I personally think Smit was smitten by Patsy (she could charm a frog into a prince) and was right sometimes, but tried to drive the investigation away from her, which he or somebody obviously did and succeeded at. (Oops - Smit and smitten - just caught that - wasn't intentional). The most similarity to Lindbergh is along the same lines. If CAL caught you in his house and after his son, he'd figure out a way to kill you. He was a very driven man. That lets out a lot of potential kidnappers and raises a real question about the crime, of course he wasn't supposed to be home that early on 3/1/32, but who would know that? Betty? Ollie and wife? Anne? not many others. I like the Betty angle and the posts about her I've read here. I'm surprised Michael knew she was "caught with her pants down." But then Michael seems to know everything. Does Michael know that Red had VD? Does Michael or you, Kevkon, think it's unusual that Betty never saw Red again after they both got back to Europe? My biggest problem with LKC is the footprints but if you read closely they say that the double footprints went only back to where the ladder was found. I hate "what if's" but I keep using them anyway so what if the perp first tried the fully extended ladder which turned out to be too long, then went back and took off the top and just used the bottom sections. That would account for the double footprints maybe, but how much can we rely on footprint testimony or perhaps police report, when there should have been footprints going to the house as well as away which I've never seen anything about - Michael! Usually the simplest solution is the best which would be one man BRH kidnapping one child CALIII, but Hauptmann was an experienced crook, and more than likely would have liked to cover his bases. For one thing, if you've ever worked with ladders, you know that the worst situation is if you get on the roof and the ladder blows down. In just, Hauptmann ideally would have wanted someone to hold the ladder. Secondly, what if the car he left on Dreary Lane or wherever, is stolen or won't start when he gets back - big trouble. So again, a guy or woman in the car would be good perhaps driving around, and I think that's what happened. When BRH was waiting for his pickup the police showed and they couldn't carry a baby around anymore so byebye CALIII and Hauptmann's crew with their phony NJ license plate (anyone can imagine how easy this one is to do) go over or through whatever bridge or tunnel it takes and so gone. Of course that means more people to snitch, but again no one would ever admit to being a part of that crime. For Michael: Thank you for the compliment - coming from someone like you that is very very nice! Fuhrer sounds nice for my title - thanks. I've come across references to you at other times besides the Parker book, always with high regards. I remember when I was looking for the book "Murder of Justice" by Wayne Jones, Dave told me you didn't like it as if it was the last word on the subject. I'm glad you've got a lot on here about Betty Gow - she's always been a question mark for me. Regarding your question, if you don't know about jail elevators that's certainly a feather in your cap.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Apr 30, 2008 21:25:01 GMT -5
Jack, I was going to suggest Czar as your title as it seems more in vogue these days, but if Fuhrer is your choice that's fine by me! So mein Fuhrer, can you see a possibility that both the Ramsey and Lindbergh cases may not be all that they appear? Are they murder or kidnapping?
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Post by jack7 on Apr 30, 2008 22:09:14 GMT -5
For Kevkon: THE BIG Q! Darn - that's the worst question I've ever had. And also probably the best, but I've never thought about it enough. I was working on a question to ask BRH (another post) and thought a good one would be to ask him if he knew Al Reich, but of course we'd wonder if then a truthfull answer wasn't leading to another lie. OK so here goes (though I'd value your opinion just as much as mine): Ramsey - I believe Patsy was a cocaine/meth user and the photagrapher was her junkie. She let him to do photos that nite and things went awry. She probably was upstairs praying and snorting when JB died. What could John do in an instant? He covered well later. Patsy was kinda chunky for a freaker, but look at her sister and what she might have become. So what does that mean to the death? I think there's a video somewhere of JB's death and whether it was intentional or not it is MURDER. Lindbergh - I already stated that I believe the child was killed because of police involvement. I think there was a woman involved in the crime. I stated on a post (not here) that I'd like to see Gerta Henkel and what's her name Hauptmann exhumed and their rouge, lipstick and hair checked against known bad bill samples. THe child would have been killed intentionally so -MURDER.
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Apr 30, 2008 22:41:04 GMT -5
For Kevkon: ADDENDUM Jack The Ripper is our best case, Bob Mills and I may write a book about it but I'm not sure I want to involve the current family in the solution. They've never done any harm to me (yet) and I have no problems with them. Sometimes the solutions are easy to find, but the motivation is very hard. Ask Bob about why on Lincoln and you'll get a real diatribe but no real why. Lincoln is a super example of a known. Why would a good looking semi-famous person with supposedly a great mind shoot a President? You tell me. You tell me Kevkon, you tell me.
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on May 1, 2008 1:08:50 GMT -5
INTENT (which is what you were perhaps after anyway) - Ramsey - Kinky sex photos Lindbergh - Kidnap
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on May 1, 2008 6:34:50 GMT -5
That's easy Jack; BECAUSE HE CAN
Then I take it you're leaning toward a fictional piece?
Interesting So we have an intentional kidnapper with no means of kidnapping and an unintentional murderer with advanced means of murder.
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on May 1, 2008 7:54:53 GMT -5
For Kevkon: One day, a long while ago, Ernest Hemingway allowed Scott Fitzgerald to look at his idea for a new novel, "The Sun Also Rises." Scott sent back many pages of revisions which, except for one idea, would have destroyed the new book. Do you know what the message that Hemmingway sent back to Fitzgerald was?
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Post by rick3 on May 1, 2008 8:06:30 GMT -5
Michael--how many different ways was Charlie Schippell's name misspelled: - Scheppel, Schoppel, Shappel, Shippel, Schoepfel, etc
2. How many aliases did the unemployed boxer-bootblack Enrico Ceradi have:
- Joseph Ceradi, Enrico Seradi, Carmelli Gerardi, Frank Jerome, etc (see FBI files page 426) {maybe even Frank Schiraldi?}
3. "I agree with your points concerning "John" and the handwriting. It's what makes me think the Police, quite possibly, actually had a Confederate at one time."MM
- My #1 candidate for the insider confederate: Lewis J. Bornmann.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on May 1, 2008 9:19:14 GMT -5
No Jack, sorry, I mean mein Fuhrer, I don't. I told you I am no intellectual! You're not comparing a certain writer with Hemingway, are you? Hemingway spent his time in the trenches. He wrote with experience and knowledge, not ignorance.
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on May 7, 2008 1:23:08 GMT -5
Hemingway was in the trenches - a lot - and I certainly admired him for that. He was medaled in WWI and completely volunteered and was front line in WWII. The only reason I brought him up was because of Fitzgerald's dis of him. And I still send the same message Hemingway sent to Fitzgerald to you.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on May 7, 2008 6:21:14 GMT -5
Jack, here is a simple question for you;
What is your objective?
Just wanna be sure Jack. I don't want to waste my time if this is all about impressing Dave. If that 's the deal, I'll tell him for you how courageous and erudite you truly are. Hey, you might even get an invite to an 81 run!
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on May 7, 2008 13:13:48 GMT -5
I don't have to impress Dave - Dave is a friend of mine. Since you keep bringing Dave up though I will comment that, similar to Hemingway, Dave is in the trenches too, an a far cry above most researchers.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on May 7, 2008 14:22:12 GMT -5
Well done Jack. You managed to avoid the question completely. That's a trait that I have noticed most pronounced and well practiced among the hoaxsters. Congrats!
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on May 8, 2008 17:18:18 GMT -5
Oh Jack Dave, where art thou?
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on May 9, 2008 9:13:35 GMT -5
Dave is gone for a couple weeks working with Queen. Not the Elizabeth type, the band type
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on May 11, 2008 5:21:49 GMT -5
For Kevkon: I live close to Sturgis and if you're coming up this year invite you to a bed or a campsite - hey very welcome!
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on May 11, 2008 6:47:04 GMT -5
Thanks Jack! You are welcome as well if you happen to find the time or need to come east and visit the LKC spots. I'll build a ladder just for you and we can take it over to Highfields. Or we could build that replica of BRH's garage for your movie.
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on May 11, 2008 13:40:31 GMT -5
For Kevkon: Ya - focus on the garage! Have you read "Killing Time" by Freed and Briggs? It's about OJ but was published shortly before the civil decision and does many many possible timelines. Few people involved in OJ as well as Lindbergh. I always thought it a little odd that Betty hadn't bumped into CAL before the event, since she was newly arrived and all. On another board Charles II is thought of as a womanizer. Seemed more like a nobodyizer to me. Anyway, on timelines I wonder if true detectives like Finn didn't look into that stuff and their notes might be available? Trenton? Dave wants me to head out to Trenton so I might take you up on that offer. I havn't been East in a while. One of my fondest memories is the mansion walk at night - Newport. Old money is pretty beautiful - new money?- Prince's studio near Minneapolis is purple. He may have painted his Mother's house purple too for all I know - havn't been there in a while either.
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on May 11, 2008 23:12:57 GMT -5
For Joe: I noticed your post of 4/20/08 attributing Cornwell's solution of Jack The Ripper as valid. HaHa! Cornwell is a rich anti free state catering to - three guesses - and each has ruled over England since 1900. Sickert's probably the one hahaing and rolling over in his grave about her because I'm sure he wouldn't mind being thought of as JTR. But no such luck for her. Most of her theory is based on earlier work which she does not officially recognize. I think there are grounds for plageurism, but the author is mysteriously dead and the subject (relative) is very low key - perhaps also dead by now. Anyway, Cornwell proved to my satisfaction that Sickert wrote some of the Ripper letters, but not the correct ones! I can't say more because I may do a book on the subject but I'll tell you that Cornwell claims to have spent six million researching the subject and that was approximately ten times more than the total amount spent on it (including other authors and law enforcement) in the past, and she came to a conclusion that she could have gotten at her local library for free. HaHa!
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on May 12, 2008 6:41:44 GMT -5
You got it 100% right in your post on the other site, Jack. These serial killers are a whole lot more fascinating before you find out who they really are. Once discovered they are shown to be just pathetic sick killers and not very extraordinary. It wouldn't surprise me in the least to find that the great "Zodiac" was an accountant or assembly worker.
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Post by jack7 on May 12, 2008 9:48:29 GMT -5
For Michael: You perhaps don't watch the LKHF board, and I don't blame you - wish you'd moniter it - but Kevkon made a very unusual post there. He actually knew the unsolved line of a Zodiac cipher which supposedly says Zodiac's name - an astounding feat - especially and apparently because it came off the top of his head, or he was able to find it quickly. I suspected it right away, but it took me a while to find it. I think Kevkon should be promoted to Generalissimo, a title everyone admires or else. When I was in business I found it much more economical to promote people than give them more money. I had managers and senior managers and consultants all over the place that, in spite of the fact they were making barely over minimum wage, were quite happy. Government is loaded with this thinking - the problem there is they're giving 'em more money. That defeats the "Important Peon" philosophy. Jack
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on May 12, 2008 15:55:22 GMT -5
Thanks jack, but I don't know about Generalissimo. Sounds a little too much like a third world despot for my taste. How about Viceroy? Sounds a lot classier and then I could add the OBE and VC later.
BTW, I think the Zodiac's last line is nonsense. He's just playing and enjoying the power trip.
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Post by Joe on May 12, 2008 19:50:06 GMT -5
For Jack: Touche Whistler, but I've already found the JTR murder weapon in Sickert's Ennui? Can you? Ha ha!
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Post by jack7 on May 12, 2008 22:52:02 GMT -5
For Joe: You seem to know a lot - Whistler! I've seen a picture of that knife and of course it's a possibility. The problem is that there are facts leading in another direction. That knife is based on nothing other than it is a strong backed boning knife which could have done the murders. I believe a thinner blade folding knife which could be concealed is more likely. Remember JTR had to get to and from the victims. The interesting thing is the owner of that knife mysteriously (youthful) died. Another Royal conspiracy?
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