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Post by hurtelable on Jun 9, 2017 19:49:11 GMT -5
This is a little genealogy question that has escaped me for quite a number of years: What was the exact relationship between Dr. John Francis Condon ("Jafsie" of LKC fame) and John Francis Xavier Condon (1914-1989), a celebrity of sorts in the sports world as a boxing matchmaker and publicist for Madison Square Garden in New York, as well as a well-known public address announcer for Madison Square Garden basketball games, professional (usually involving the New York Knickerbockers) and college. I am almost sure the two were related somehow or another. They had almost the exact same name - differing by the insertion of the middle name "Xavier" in the younger man's name - plus both spent most of their lives around New York City and both shared a common involvement and interest in sports, in particular boxing.
I believe I've posted this before, without any definitive answer. So I would welcome assistance from the community of research stars out there to find out what the actual blood relationship was between these two.
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Post by Miss dockendorf on Jun 10, 2017 10:56:27 GMT -5
I'm a genealogist so let me see what I can find out. Never posted this so let me add what I did find. Dr Condon did have a son John F Jr however he was born in 1897 so not the match we were looking for. There are a surprising amount of John Francis Condons roaming around NYC so this may prove difficult. Have found two men that match the 1914 John F Condon, one living with his "mother" and Grandmother, if dates are correct his mother was 14 when she gave birth and she is listed as married but no father present in 1920, the second matches well with an Irish father named Francis but no way of telling, also an enlistment of John Francis Condon in NYC for WW1. I'll keep looking to see if I can find a match but think if there was one we probably would have known about it. Just a guess.
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Post by Miss dockendorf on Jun 10, 2017 13:17:56 GMT -5
It gets crazier, there are actually two John France Xavier Condons born on NYC; one born in 1914, the one were looking at and another listed as a Reverend born in 1925. And they are cross referenced in books etc. so this bit of info was confused quite a bit. Still no indication the two Condons were related.
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Post by Miss dockendorf on Jun 10, 2017 14:21:11 GMT -5
My Stars!!!!! Okay what I tried to determine was did John F Condon have any siblings with a son or grandson named John Frances Xavier Condon, so far no. John Condon b 1821 in Ireland immigrated to the US in 1848 had four sons; James b 1855, Michael b 1857, John F b 1860, and Joseph W b 1859. James' children were John, Mary, James and Nellie. Michaels were George, Mabel, John and Margaret. John's (Jafsies)were John Jr, Sarah and Myra although some of that comes off FindaGrave so grain of salt. and Josephs were Joseph and John, think there might be more but his son John did not father John FX Condon as he was far too young to be the father. Take note there were four John Condons running around that were first cousins. If I can find out more about John F X Condon I may have more to go on. That was actually a lot of fun to look into.
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Post by stella7 on Jun 10, 2017 15:15:52 GMT -5
Well, there's that name Nellie again!
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Post by lightningjew on Jun 11, 2017 1:05:08 GMT -5
In his book, Condon mentions he has three kids: Myra, John Jr., and Lawrence. Myra married someone named Hacker, and John and Lawrence were both lawyers. Of course, this is coming from Condon, so who knows really...? Anyway, I found Myra at Find-a-Grave. She died in the 70s, her brother John Jr. in the late 60s, and their parents (Jafsie and Myra Sr.) in the 40s. No record of Lawrence.
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Post by Miss dockendorf on Jun 11, 2017 9:58:30 GMT -5
Found out a little about Lawrence, his full name is Lawrence Robert Condon born in the Bronx August 16th 1899 married Isabel Adelaide Lieber August 11th 1924. He was a lawyer and shows up on the 1940 census with a wife and a cook and a butler. He's too young to be able to trace very much but the following is the NY Time obit in 1973 for him.
SOUTHAMPTON, LI., May 13 —Lawrence R, Condon, a New York lawyer, who had represented stockholders in public utility reorganizations, died Friday at his summer home here. His age was 73. Mr. Condon was a graduate of Columbia College and of Columbia University Law School. His widow, Isabel, survives.
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Post by hurtelable on Jun 11, 2017 9:58:49 GMT -5
It gets crazier, there are actually two John France Xavier Condons born on NYC; one born in 1914, the one were looking at and another listed as a Reverend born in 1925. And they are cross referenced in books etc. so this bit of info was confused quite a bit. Still no indication the two Condons were related. John Francis Xavier Condon was born in Manhattan on Aug.29, 1914, died in Manhattan at Lenox Hill Hospital, Oct. 13, 1979 at age 75. Extensive obit in NY Times Oct. 15, 1979. There are many articles written about him on the Internet, but none, as far as I could find, mention a relationship to "Jafsie." I would find it kind of improbable that he wasn't related to "Jafsie," especially because of the boxing connections of both of them. Unfortunately, I don't know of any biographies written of him, and no autobiography. BTW, I once met John F. X. Condon in person by chance, but that was before my interest in the LKC.
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Post by Miss dockendorf on Jun 11, 2017 10:36:11 GMT -5
Have you found any bio on John F X b 1914 that mentions parents names? I haven't been able to find that. There are three John Condon's born in 1914 in NY so it's difficult to figure out which is which. Quite a bit about what a classy man he was so it must have been interesting to meet him. There's quite a bit about him due to the Boxing HOF induction but not much of a personal nature.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2017 10:50:31 GMT -5
I have taken a look at this also. There are an incredible number of John Condons in New York to work through. So far I have not been able to find a blood link between Jafsie and John F.X. From what I can tell at this point, John F.X. is the son of John P. Condon and Theresa(King)Condon. John P. Condon was the son of a John F. Condon(not Jafsie). These families lived in the Queens section of New York. Jafsie, as we know, was a Bronx man all his life. Because both Jafsie Condon and John F.X. Condon loved sports, I thought maybe that is where a connection might be. According to the 1925 New York State census, John F.X was living in Long Island City, Queens, NY. Now, it just so happens that the Queensboro Athletic Club is in Long Island City. Al Reich was boxing out of this club in the early 1920's. I think this is where Jafsie Condon and Al Reich met. John F.X would have been a young boy at the time like 9 but young boys did hang out at boxing clubs watching the fighters train, etc. Could Jafsie and John F.X crossed paths at this athletic club?? John F.X. only completed his second year of high school so I could not find a college connection (Fordham University) between Jafsie and John F.X. which I really looked for. John F.X. is mentioned on a blog that is connected with Fordham University even though John F.X. was not an alumni. Fordham University shared a close connection with Madison Square Garden through the New York Knicks. John F.X. became the public address announcer for the Knicks in 1947. At this point John(Jafsie) Condon is already deceased(Jan. 1945). John F.X would also go on to be the Madison Square Gardens public relations director and president of MSG boxing, arranging some of the biggest boxing matches, including the Muhammad Ali and Joe Frazier fight in March 1971. John F.X.'s biggest moments were all achieved after John Jafsie Condon had passed away. If there is actually a blood connection, then it may be found somewhere connected with Jafsie's father's side. I have not looked at that. Otherwise, I think an early sports connection when John F.X was a boy might be where they could possibly have encountered each other. Regardless, John F.X. Condon was fun to learn about. www.ibhof.com/pages/about/inductees/nonparticipant/condon.html
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Post by hurtelable on Jun 11, 2017 16:03:39 GMT -5
I believe that John F. X. Condon was born in Manhattan. He was living in Queens when he died (married to wife Viola). No mention in his obit of any children or other relationships. He nay have lived outside New York for a while, because I recall I couldn't find him in some censuses.
As far as Jafsie is concerned, he was NOT born in the Bronx, but in Albany, NY, in 1860. In all his boasting about the Bronx, I don't think he ever (falsely) claimed that he was a native.
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Post by hurtelable on Jun 11, 2017 16:24:53 GMT -5
Interesting idea. Perhaps Jafsie was over at Long Island City to hang out with boxers around then and invited his kid relative (John F. X.) to come join him. Long Island City, BTW, was well known in that era for its large outdoor boxing stadium, the Long Island City Bowl, which hosted quite a number of famous fights, including heavyweight championships.
Al Reich was a heavyweight, I believe, and though he never fought for a championship, was considered to be in the higher echelons of his era. His last professional fight was in 1924.
BTW, I never knew there was ever a New York State Census. What years is it available for?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2017 21:33:14 GMT -5
Al Reich was a heavyweight, I believe, and though he never fought for a championship, was considered to be in the higher echelons of his era. His last professional fight was in 1924. Al did fight as a heavyweight. In his early career he was thought to be the Great White Hope in the boxing world. According to an article written by Damon Runyon about Al Reich, he thought Al was mismanaged and that is why he never reached his full potential as a heavyweight boxer. Here is that article. news.google.com/newspapers?id=uJFRAAAAIBAJ&sjid=tWkDAAAAIBAJ&pg=4262%2C6186425I have used the New York State census as far back as 1905. It my go back farther than that. It is in 5 year increments with the year ending in 5. It runs between the Federal census years which end in 0. You can google New York State Census + the year and it will bring up the free Family Research link to use or if you are a member of Ancestry.com they have it on there.
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Post by john on Jun 12, 2017 1:54:27 GMT -5
I'd give up on this one. In the period being looked at in this thread there was a tendency among certain ethnic and religious groups to use certain names. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if there were dozens of John Condons with or without the F. and/or X living in NYC between 1900 and 1950. The middle names Francis and Xavier were common back then and sometimes combined. This is, or rather was, especially common among those of Irish-Catholic ancestry. Also, using the name of the Pope for a middle name and for some people a first name was also common, hence the rise and fall of Leo in more or less the same period. Francis X. used to be so common years ago, and now turns up mostly in the obituary sections of the local newspaper where I live...
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Post by hurtelable on Jun 12, 2017 13:20:35 GMT -5
I'd give up on this one. In the period being looked at in this thread there was a tendency among certain ethnic and religious groups to use certain names. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if there were dozens of John Condons with or without the F. and/or X living in NYC between 1900 and 1950. The middle names Francis and Xavier were common back then and sometimes combined. This is, or rather was, especially common among those of Irish-Catholic ancestry. Also, using the name of the Pope for a middle name and for some people a first name was also common, hence the rise and fall of Leo in more or less the same period. Francis X. used to be so common years ago, and now turns up mostly in the obituary sections of the local newspaper where I live... The fact is we know John F. X. Condon's date of birth, so we can distinguish him from others of the same name. And "Condon, " while not rare, is certainly far from the most common last name among Irish Americans. So I wouldn't give up. For example, in the 1925 New York State Census, if I read it correctly, there were only two John Condons born in 1914 listed. (Not everyone participated in that census, of course.) Yes, I agree, there were quite a number of Irish Americans in New York at the time who had names like "Francis," "Xavier", or "Francis Xavier."
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Post by hurtelable on Jun 12, 2017 15:15:22 GMT -5
Thanks for the article, amy35. It was written by Damon Runyan, one of the most famous writers of his era - not just sports. However, I don't think that this particular piece was one of his best literary efforts, with it's overemphasis on the issue "The Great White Hope."
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Post by Joseph F. Condon on Jun 26, 2018 17:46:48 GMT -5
There was no relationship between Jafsie and John FX Condon. Jafsie's father John came from Ireland so that is where you would have to look for a family connection, unfortunately I know nothing about my family history in Ireland except from about 1100 until 1300.
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Post by Joseph F. Condon on Jun 26, 2018 17:55:40 GMT -5
As far as I know, John F. Condon Jr. was born November 1896 and died October 7, 1969. He was married to Katherine Shea and they had one daughter Sarah Condon Miller. John Jr. was an attorney in Manhattan.
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Post by hurtelable on Jul 7, 2018 16:24:24 GMT -5
There was no relationship between Jafsie and John FX Condon. Jafsie's father John came from Ireland so that is where you would have to look for a family connection, unfortunately I know nothing about my family history in Ireland except from about 1100 until 1300. I believe we traced the ancestry of both Jafsie and John F. X. Condon, respectively, back to the same small town in Ireland. So I would think that having the same family name in the same small town, there would be a pretty decent chance that some ancestor of one was related to some ancestor of another. BTW, just curious, Joseph, have you ever gotten this exact same question about a possible relationship between the two? Another question, Joseph: Would you happen to know the exact birthdate and birthplace of Jafsie Condon?
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Post by Joseph F. Condon on Jan 15, 2019 17:54:13 GMT -5
I don't know how information gets so confused, but perhaps I can help with a few things. John Condon, my great grandfather was born in 1821 in Ireland. . If you have traced him back to a town in Ireland, I would really like to know the name of the town. John married Ellen Conlin, it was her that was born in Albany in 1834. John and Ellen had nine children. The children were John Francis (Jafsie), Catherine Ann, Ellen, Ellen Agnes, Clara, Michael (who attended St. John's College in Fordham and later became a priest), James who also attended St. James College, Joseph F. (the youngest child who was born in 1878. I am not aware of the fact that James was married, his wife's name or the names of any children and Nellie is not a family name so I doubt that any of his children would bear that name. I am also not aware of Michael being married or having children, as far as I know he became a priest and emigrated to Australia. Jafsie's children were John (who may be the John Francis Xavier you are refering to). He lived in New York and worked as an attorney. Lawrence an attorney who lived on Park Ave in Manhattan and worked as an attorney and had a summer house in South Hampton on Long Island. Lawrence and his wife Isabel may have had a daughter Sara. As far as I know, the boxing promoter John Francis Xavier and Jafsie were not related. The name Condon originated in Cork, Ireland when Nicholas De Caunteton married Mabel Fitzgerald. Mabel was the daughter of William Fitzgerald and Maria Montgomery, grand daughter of Gerald De Windsor and Nesta.
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Post by Joseph F. Condon on Jan 15, 2019 20:39:15 GMT -5
John Francis Condon Born June 1860 Bronx, New York. Baptized June 1, 1860 Saint Augustine's Church Deceased January 2, 1945 Spouse Myra Brown Condon.
Children John Francis Condon born November 1896, Lawrence born August 16, 1899, Myra born about 11/09 1903, married Ralph Evans Hacker architect, lived West Englewood,Teaneck, New Jersey
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Post by hurtelable on Jan 19, 2019 18:51:25 GMT -5
John Francis Condon Born June 1860 Bronx, New York. Baptized June 1, 1860 Saint Augustine's Church Deceased January 2, 1945 Spouse Myra Brown Condon. Children John Francis Condon born November 1896, Lawrence born August 16, 1899, Myra born about 11/09 1903, married Ralph Evans Hacker architect, lived West Englewood,Teaneck, New Jersey Come to think of it, I don't believe I've ever seen Jafsie's exact birth date and birth place. Would anyone have seen his birth record and/or baptismal certificate? I may have neglected something, but I tried to locate his parents in the 1860 Federal census but couldn't find them.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2019 14:22:39 GMT -5
Come to think of it, I don't believe I've ever seen Jafsie's exact birth date and birth place. Would anyone have seen his birth record and/or baptismal certificate? I may have neglected something, but I tried to locate his parents in the 1860 Federal census but couldn't find them. I have not be working on this recently so I have not yet found his birth record or any baptismal record. I do believe its possible he was baptized on June 1, 1860. I have looked at the 1860 U.S. census on the Condon family. The Condon family census at this time was taken in July of 1860. In this census John (Jafsie) Condon is listed as a two month old baby. Working backwards from July, Jafsie would probably have been born in early May of 1860. Perhaps Condon preferred to use his baptismal date as his birth date. Anyway, it is really necessary to locate his birth record just to confirm an exact date for his birth.
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Post by hurtelable on Jan 21, 2019 14:42:06 GMT -5
So you have seen Jafsie listed as an infant in the 1860 Federal Census? I'm not sure of this, but I have a vague recollection that the Condon family was living in Albany, NY (140 miles north of NYC) in that census. If so, Jafsie was likely born in Albany. And I don't recall anyone writing anywhere that Jafsie, despite his his effusive praise of the Bronx, was a Bronx native or a lifetime resident of the Bronx. (BTW, in 1860, the Bronx was a separate county within the city of New York, even though it was generally rustic. It didn't gain "borough" status until the five-boroughs, five counties system was established in 1898.)
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2019 18:01:09 GMT -5
So you have seen Jafsie listed as an infant in the 1860 Federal Census? I'm not sure of this, but I have a vague recollection that the Condon family was living in Albany, NY (140 miles north of NYC) in that census. In 1860 at the time of this Federal Census, the family is living at West Farms, Westchester, New York which was serviced by the Mount Vernon post office.
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Post by Joseph F. Condon on Jun 9, 2019 14:56:45 GMT -5
You stated no mention of Jafsie's youngest son Lawrence. Lawrence was a lawyer who lived on Park Ave. The probable address was 550 Park Ave. in Manhattan. He was married to Isabel Grace. They had a summer home on Wyandanch Road in South Hampton on long Island. They had a large parcel of land at the south end of the road which stretched all the way to the ocean. I believe the parcel was called Olde Towne Farm. The home and the surrounding area were damaged in the 1938 hurricane called the Long Island Express. His obituary was in the New York Times May 14, 1973.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2019 20:27:36 GMT -5
I want to share some information I have about John (Jafsie) Condon and his father John S. Condon: Here is Jafsie listed in the 1860 census. This information was collected in July 1860: imgur.com/x9jZk7kHere is Jafsie's Dad, John S. Condon in the New York Death index: imgur.com/CIhMBfnHere is the listing for the Will for John S. Condon: imgur.com/tQLAtgZHere are two pages for John S. Condon's Will. Notations around the edges are mine. Please note that John S. mentions he has a brother, Michael, who would be Jafsie's uncle. This will was drawn up and signed by John S. in February 1895. Probate took place August 1896. imgur.com/QjHACj3imgur.com/2eDFwrlI hope that others will find this information useful.
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Post by hurtelable on Jun 19, 2019 14:05:40 GMT -5
I want to share some information I have about John (Jafsie) Condon and his father John S. Condon: Here is Jafsie listed in the 1860 census. This information was collected in July 1860: imgur.com/x9jZk7kHere is Jafsie's Dad, John S. Condon in the New York Death index: imgur.com/CIhMBfnHere is the listing for the Will for John S. Condon: imgur.com/tQLAtgZHere are two pages for John S. Condon's Will. Notations around the edges are mine. Please note that John S. mentions he has a brother, Michael, who would be Jafsie's uncle. This will was drawn up and signed by John S. in February 1895. Probate took place August 1896. imgur.com/QjHACj3imgur.com/2eDFwrlI hope that others will find this information useful. I notice a discrepancy, for whatever reason, between John S. Condon's birth year according to the 1860 federal census and according to the New York City Death Index. Did John S. lie to to the census taker? Familial tendency passed down to John F? Also, it's a bit ironic that Jafsie's father would request in his will to be buried in ST. RAYMOND's CEMETERY, although this was apparently in Westchester County, not the same place as where his son would hand out the ransom money in the Bronx but the same name. But it's possible that the two cemeteries were under the same ownership.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2019 16:56:38 GMT -5
I notice a discrepancy, for whatever reason, between John S. Condon's birth year according to the 1860 federal census and according to the New York City Death Index. Did John S. lie to to the census taker? There can be various reasons why there is this discrepancy in the birth date. The original document, as is available on ancestry, is extremely light in color due to age of the document. We are talking 1860 here. I could just barely make out July. Sometimes it can be a misread by the person who is doing the transcribing for ancestry. Sometimes it can be erroneous information on the part of the person who is giving the census taker that info. Mr. Condon could have been at work at the time this census worker visited the house and his wife could have given the wrong birthdate. If for some reason, John Condon chose to lie about his birthdate, I certainly don't know what the reason would be for that. It is not unusual to see variation in birthdates, mostly just a year or two. That is why it is so important to match other people, etc. with a person to make sure you are looking at the correct individual. I really see it as a non-issue. The purpose of sharing this was to show that Jafsie Condon was already about two months old at the time the census was taken in July of 1860. Nothing more.
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Post by hurtelable on Jun 21, 2019 14:06:44 GMT -5
Amy, I agree with everything you say here. It was just tongue-in-cheek humor to speculate that John S. Condon might have lied to the census taker, as his son had a propensity for lying to authorities years later.
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