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Post by kate1 on Jun 4, 2017 6:19:26 GMT -5
Reading through old posts I see Connecticut appear in context with differing people, (Fisch fled there after the baby's body was found? ). Wondering if anyone tied some of these together. I know Edgar Cayce did a reading and had said the baby was in Connecticut and he was seldom wrong.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2017 10:35:36 GMT -5
I have not looked into the Edgar Cayce angle. I have Theon Wright's book but I really have not read it cover to cover. I admit I am more interested in a Fisch/Condon connection when it comes to the LKC.
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Post by kate1 on Jun 4, 2017 10:48:25 GMT -5
Amy, I'm trying to read past post and they are sooo good, but I need to take some notes to try to tie some of this together in my mind! Always interested to hear your ideas.
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Post by kate1 on Jun 4, 2017 18:04:02 GMT -5
I have not looked into the Edgar Cayce angle. I have Theon Wright's book but I really have not read it cover to cover. I admit I am more interested in a Fisch/Condon connection when it comes to the LKC. I had forgotten Wright mentioned Cayce in his book. I read a book about Cayce's errors written by his sons years ago. Cayce did thousands of readings and was very accurate usually. His son had theories about why he was wrong or misunderstood in the TLK.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2017 21:15:36 GMT -5
So I did some checking in Theon Wright's book and here is what he says Edgar Cayce revealed in his reading about the Lindbergh baby on March 9, 1932.
1) The baby was removed from the room carried by a man with another man waiting.
2) The baby was lowered to the ground and taken to a car.
3) The car drives away and at some point the child is transferred to a different car.
4) This second car heads northward towards Jersey City, through a tunnel and across New York City into Connecticut to the region of Cordova which was on the east side of New Haven.
5) The house where the Lindbergh baby was taken in New Haven could be reached by following along Adams Street, turning right at a shingled house two tenths of a mile from the end of Adams Street, numbered 473.
6) The baby was being held in a brown house (formerly green) on Scharter Street, the third house from the corner. Three men and a woman were guarding the baby.
7) Cayce was asked what forces could be put in motion leading to the return of the Lindbergh baby and Cayce answered "There are already many in motion."
Colonel Lindbergh's friend Major Lanphier (with Lindbergh's approval) had requested this reading from Cayce. After receiving this information, Lanphier and the FBI went to New Haven. They found no Adams Street, no Scharter Street nor was there a Cordova section in or near New Haven.
Cayce was contacted for additional information and he said the Cordova section was spelled Cardova and he also came up with some names; a woman named Madge Beliance and the name Meglo - later changed to Megleo. Also on March 12, Cayce was asked if Red Johnson, a friend of the Lindbergh nurse was involved. Cayce replied with, "Involved as seen." When asked if Betty Gow was involved he replied, "Not directly."
There may be more to what Cayce said. This is just what I noted after a quick search in Wright's book. If you can shed some light on the errors and how they were corrected that would be helpful.
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Post by kate1 on Jun 5, 2017 3:55:23 GMT -5
Amy, so long ago. Found the book at a library in Indpls. Will research and see if I can find it somewhere. Thank you for the info!
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Post by hurtelable on Jun 5, 2017 6:41:42 GMT -5
FWIW, in terms of a "Connecticut connection" to the LKC, I seem to recall that a ransom bill was passed at a business location in CT days after Condon gave the money to CJ at St. Raymond's. The person who received the ransom bill (again IIRC) was able to provide a description of the passer to authorities.
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Post by kate1 on Jun 5, 2017 7:32:40 GMT -5
FWIW, in terms of a "Connecticut connection" to the LKC, I seem to recall that a ransom bill was passed at a business location in CT days after Condon gave the money to CJ at St. Raymond's. The person who received the ransom bill (again IIRC) was able to provide a description of the passer to authorities. Thank you for this post...this what I'm trying to pull together in my own mind. Working on going back to sources I have when I can.
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Post by kate1 on Jun 5, 2017 7:41:40 GMT -5
Woman in the bakery with ransom money, Red flees to Conn. Immediately after baby disappears, Fisch also goes after baby's body is found. Cayce, called in by CAL's people says baby was taken to Conn. Trying to find their destinations in Connecticut to see if there is any possible connection or not. Just curious.
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Post by hurtelable on Jun 5, 2017 13:36:33 GMT -5
Woman in the bakery with ransom money, Red flees to Conn. Immediately after baby disappears, Fisch also goes after baby's body is found. Cayce, called in by CAL's people says baby was taken to Conn. Trying to find their destinations in Connecticut to see if there is any possible connection or not. Just curious. Red Johnsen didn't quite "flee" to Connecticut. His brother lived in West Hartford, CT and Betty Gow, I presume, told that to police. As to Fisch, what is the source that places him in Connecticut after the baby's body is found? What connections did Fisch have in Connecticut?
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Post by kate1 on Jun 5, 2017 14:43:08 GMT -5
I don't know about Fisch but I read it on old posts here. Red didn't flee And he had a reason but that's where he was when arrested.
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Post by kate1 on Jun 5, 2017 14:43:29 GMT -5
Looking it up but I very recently read that and that's why I started this.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2017 14:58:51 GMT -5
Looking it up but I very recently read that and that's why I started this. Well, if you are interested in putting together a New England connection to this kidnapping, then I think it starts with the Woodlawn Cemetery meeting between Condon and CJ. If Condon is to be believed and CJ is being truthful, CJ tells Condon that he is from the Boston area and has to travel down to New York in order to have these meetings. Then there is the sleeping suit that was mailed to Condon; although the FBI says the sleeping suit package was mailed from Brooklyn, there are those who have made the case that the postmark on the packaging is from Stamford Connecticut. Then there is the Boad Nelly Note that puts Charlie on a boat in the waters off the coastline of Massachusetts. Then there are also the things already mentioned like Red Johnson going to Hartford Conn.; the Greenwich Conn. bakery store almost purchase with a supposed $20 ransom note. There is the Norwalk, Connecticut visit by Fisch and a companion in May of 1932. This also involved a claim by the woman who was renting to Fisch that Dr. Condon visited Fisch there. I do see possibilities in that because Condon did stop at Danbury Connecticut but could easily have stopped in Norwalk first. Condon also went to Beckett Mass in May of 1932. I recently came upon a newspaper article where a lady told New York Detectives that in 1933 she had Henry Uhlig and another man(not Fisch) boarding with her in Norwalk Conn. for a while. This story was backed up by her husband. Then there is the Edgar Cayce readings that put Charlie in New Haven Conn. I also read that in March of 1932, Val O'Farrell was investigating a woman going under the name of Mrs. Woods who had a crying baby that looked like the Lindbergh baby with her at the hotel in Flushing New York. She was headed to Hartford Connecticut according to the hotel clerk. She left without paying her bill. There was a hunt by O'Farrell and the Hartford police to find this woman and child. It would seem there must be some kind of New England connection since it begins with the Condon/CJ meeting. I do think it is worth exploring.
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Post by stella7 on Jun 6, 2017 15:16:59 GMT -5
Lindbergh and Condon flew out of Bridgeport Airport(then called Avon Field)in his search for the baby off the Elizabeth Islands/Cuttyhunk.
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Post by kate1 on Jun 6, 2017 19:05:55 GMT -5
Thank you for pulling these various events together. Cannot understand why the "baby's body" was found southeast of his home. Really feel he was placed there close to the time of discovery. There were no diapers at the scene and the body was not buried. In a farming area vultures would most likely have been spotted over something that was decomposing.
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Post by kate1 on Jun 6, 2017 19:11:09 GMT -5
Woman in the bakery with ransom money, Red flees to Conn. Immediately after baby disappears, Fisch also goes after baby's body is found. Cayce, called in by CAL's people says baby was taken to Conn. Trying to find their destinations in Connecticut to see if there is any possible connection or not. Just curious. Red Johnsen didn't quite "flee" to Connecticut. His brother lived in West Hartford, CT and Betty Gow, I presume, told that to police. As to Fisch, what is the source that places him in Connecticut after the baby's body is found? What connections did Fisch have in Connecticut? I have no idea what Fisch's connections in Connecticut but he certainly seemed sneaky to me!
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Post by scathma on Jun 11, 2017 14:28:25 GMT -5
As to Fisch, what is the source that places him in Connecticut after the baby's body is found? What connections did Fisch have in Connecticut? I'm currently reading Milton's Loss of Eden. In Chapter 19 she writes of a twelve-page statement that a Massachusetts convict, J.R. Russell, gave to the FBI sometime after Hauptmann's arrest. Russell stated that in the summer of '32 Hauptmann picked him up under the guise of a job for him in Maine and they began a road trip together for that purpose. "Somewhere in Connecticut they stopped to pick up a man who was introduced to Russell as Isadore Fisch." Later during a stop, Hauptmann revealed to Russell that the job was that he wanted him to kill Fisch because "he knows too much about me." A couple of pages later Milton writes that the FBI took Russell's statement seriously because, among other reasons, "Fisch had a brother living in Stonington Connecticut on the coast road to Boston" which the FBI didn't even know until Russell was interviewed. I wonder how well Fisch's brother matched Condon's description of Cemetery John?
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Post by Michael on Jun 11, 2017 18:51:28 GMT -5
A couple of pages later Milton writes that the FBI took Russell's statement seriously because, among other reasons, "Fisch had a brother living in Stonington Connecticut on the coast road to Boston" which the FBI didn't even know until Russell was interviewed. Here is the follow-up investigation to Special Agent Cunningham's Report: I wonder how well Fisch's brother matched Condon's description of Cemetery John? Fisch did not have a brother in Stonington - only a friend named Erich Schaefer.
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Post by scathma on Jun 11, 2017 19:10:48 GMT -5
Michael - Thank you for setting the record straight.
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Post by Michael on Jun 12, 2017 5:04:18 GMT -5
Michael - Thank you for setting the record straight. I am glad you brought it up and are paying attention to a name that most people haven't mentioned. It's important to explore this stuff to see what's what. In the beginning, probably within my first three years of research, I would search for specific topics at the Archives which I read about in the various books. Russell is a perfect example. At some point I simply started in the first folder then worked my way through the entire Archive. Once I finished, I started over again thinking I may have missed a couple of things. I missed a lot. Not because I didn't see it the first time but because I had learned so much prior to starting over, reports that I read during my first go-around that I felt meaningless now had value. And the NJSP Archive can be "tricky" too. Certain subjects aren't in the cards, and if they are, there may be reports that exist not referenced there - or anywhere else. This can be especially troublesome when dealing with follow-up reports. It's natural to assume they'd be in the same folder, but sometimes they are in a completely different collection. So if a report appears to be it's last - it may not be. If I hadn't gone file by file and box by box I would absolutely be making the same mistakes Authors like Fisher, Kennedy, and Milton have.
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Post by kate1 on Jun 14, 2017 15:26:09 GMT -5
I agree about attention to detail. Recently read about fingerprints on a white crib. I think the crib in Maine was white but the one in New Jersey was dark. Probably doesn't matter but these sort of things drive me crazy. The woman at bakery was well dressed and in a limo. How many limos were in anyone town during the depression? Seems like something that could have been easily and thoroughly checked. Don't trust the police to do a competent job in many cases.
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Post by scathma on Jun 14, 2017 19:48:26 GMT -5
If not for poorly secured crime scenes and mishandled evidence, we wouldn't be able to speculate on cases like LKC, JFK, JonBenet, etc...
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Post by kate1 on Jun 15, 2017 6:58:50 GMT -5
Red Johnson and the Junges are people I don't believe were thoroughly investigated.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2017 7:58:02 GMT -5
Red Johnson and the Junges are people I don't believe were thoroughly investigated. Do you think that they were being protected by CAL and Betty Morrow?
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Post by stella7 on Jun 15, 2017 15:43:40 GMT -5
Kate, I've always thought so as well. According to Michael, Marguerite Junges' husband was still being watched after Hauptman was arrested. You'll have to ask Michael the specifics because I don't recall why they were still interested.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2017 17:02:17 GMT -5
I remember asking Michael about this in the past. Marguerite Junge had been fired by Mrs. Morrow for stealing foodstuffs and I asked about that. Michael also posted a police report from 1934, I think it was, that the post office superintendent had been ordered to make tracings of the mail that Marguerite was receiving. This was after she had been left go by Mrs. Morrow. It looks like the NJSP were still interested in Junge. They must have had some suspicions about the Junges. Red Johnson and the Junges alibied each other for the night of the kidnapping.
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Post by scathma on Jun 15, 2017 18:45:56 GMT -5
Red Johnson and the Junges are people I don't believe were thoroughly investigated. Betty, Red and the Junges all leave the country soon after the LKC... only Red's departure is supposedly involuntary. Deportation is much preferred to prison time, wouldn't you say? A love triangle has motivated many a person - Red for Betty and Betty for CAL? In some book the Junges were referred to as among the wealthiest families in Hamburg before the depression - what some people will do to return to the wealthy style to which they are accustomed... Don't forget that according to the FBI, Junges, Red and Ellerson all lived at the same address at some point...
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Post by stella7 on Jun 15, 2017 19:52:56 GMT -5
Thanks Amy, you've got a good memory!
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Post by john on Jun 21, 2017 3:19:11 GMT -5
Have you read or heard anything else about Massachusetts convict J.R. Russell, Scathma? It sounds too good to be true. I mean as a lead or clue as to what was happening, especially as to the timing of what Russell said. I wonder if there's any evidence, as a shred, to tie Russell and Hauptmann in any way, shape or form. It strikes me as entirely possible that they never even met.
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Post by scathma on Jun 21, 2017 13:59:12 GMT -5
Have you read or heard anything else about Massachusetts convict J.R. Russell, Scathma? It sounds too good to be true. I mean as a lead or clue as to what was happening, especially as to the timing of what Russell said. I wonder if there's any evidence, as a shred, to tie Russell and Hauptmann in any way, shape or form. It strikes me as entirely possible that they never even met. Of the books I've read, Milton's was the only one to devote any space to the Russell story. Michael's post above and the FBI report he posted pretty much quash any link or credence to that tale.
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