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Post by john on Jan 21, 2017 15:13:17 GMT -5
Jack: With all due respect,--and no, I haven't bought the book--Michael put something like fifteen years of his life into researching the LKC; and being no dummy he knows that there's no way a book on the case, in the 21st century, is going to be a best seller, let alone sell many copies at all. Even if every LKC "buff" in the country buys it, there's no way sales of the The Dark Corners is going to make even a small fortune. Yet Michael had done a humongous amount of work on the book, has been posting here and on Ronelle's site for as long as I (think) I can remember. Add up the hours, the traveling, the time spent in libraries, museums, archives. You can't put a price tag on the amount of effort that Michael has put into his book. Nor has he ever stated that there's a Big Reveal. The book, so far as I can tell, was written to help people think more rationally and less "traditionally" about the LKC. It's true that Michael wants to, understandably, sell a few copies, get some payback for his efforts, which I applaud him for. He's only human, after all. I don't his efforts as part of a larger scam. It's not like he's going to appear on Charlie Rose next week... John
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Post by hurtelable on Jan 21, 2017 17:54:40 GMT -5
Jack: With all due respect,--and no, I haven't bought the book--Michael put something like fifteen years of his life into researching the LKC; and being no dummy he knows that there's no way a book on the case, in the 21st century, is going to be a best seller, let alone sell many copies at all. Even if every LKC "buff" in the country buys it, there's no way sales of the The Dark Corners is going to make even a small fortune. Yet Michael had done a humongous amount of work on the book, has been posting here and on Ronelle's site for as long as I (think) I can remember. Add up the hours, the traveling, the time spent in libraries, museums, archives. You can't put a price tag on the amount of effort that Michael has put into his book. Nor has he ever stated that there's a Big Reveal. The book, so far as I can tell, was written to help people think more rationally and less "traditionally" about the LKC. It's true that Michael wants to, understandably, sell a few copies, get some payback for his efforts, which I applaud him for. He's only human, after all. I don't his efforts as part of a larger scam. It's not like he's going to appear on Charlie Rose next week... John Unlike you, John, I DID buy the book and am now completing my second reading. I agree with you 100% as to Michael's efforts and goals, and, so far as that is concerned, I would say he has succeeded. Look forward to Volume II.
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Post by john on Jan 22, 2017 3:18:56 GMT -5
That's great to hear, Hurtelable . I'm looking forward to reading the book in the not too distant future. From what I'm gathering, from reviews and postings on the Web, The Dark Corners may well be heading toward canonical status re the LKC, and THAT is no small accomplishment. John
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Post by hurtelable on Jan 22, 2017 13:34:16 GMT -5
I'm presuming you mean that Mrs. Evalyn Walsh McLean gave J. Edgar Hoover a set of CAL Jr.'s fingerprints. If not, please correct me on this. If so, how would she have gotten possession of the prints?
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Post by Michael on Jan 22, 2017 15:51:58 GMT -5
I'm presuming you mean that Mrs. Evalyn Walsh McLean gave J. Edgar Hoover a set of CAL Jr.'s fingerprints. If not, please correct me on this. If so, how would she have gotten possession of the prints? She received copies of the baby's prints from Hicks. I go into this a little bit in V2.
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Post by wolfman666 on Jan 30, 2017 10:06:27 GMT -5
I miss olson we became friends. id make him laugh calling him a crazy bastard but he had a great sense of humor.
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Post by john on Feb 1, 2017 3:16:40 GMT -5
Hiya, Wolfman Steve: Harold Olson was one of a kind. I was pals with him, too. When I praised him once for his writing skills and wit he responded to me by saying that he inherited his literary gifts from his mother! There was no one else like him. A total original.
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Post by hurtelable on Feb 1, 2017 10:12:41 GMT -5
I'm presuming you mean that Mrs. Evalyn Walsh McLean gave J. Edgar Hoover a set of CAL Jr.'s fingerprints. If not, please correct me on this. If so, how would she have gotten possession of the prints? She received copies of the baby's prints from Hicks. I go into this a little bit in V2. Judging from Behn's book, it seems as if Robert Hicks was here, there, and everywhere investigating the case in the period between Hauptmann's conviction and execution. Probably underappreciated for his role and significance. Yet I can't seem to find even a capsule biography on him. Any links or suggestions?
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Post by Michael on Feb 1, 2017 17:54:30 GMT -5
Judging from Behn's book, it seems as if Robert Hicks was here, there, and everywhere investigating the case in the period between Hauptmann's conviction and execution. Probably underappreciated for his role and significance. Yet I can't seem to find even a capsule biography on him. Any links or suggestions? I know what you want and it's not on the internet. Back in 2009 I met an Intern at the NJSP Archives named Michael Skomba. He drew up an abstract for the Robert Waverly Hicks collection and, I believe, it is exactly what you are looking for. He did a really good job on this. I recommend you give Mark Falzini a call at the NJSP Archives and ask him for a copy of this abstract (it's 13 pages long). He might even have it as a .pdf file which could be emailed to you.
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Post by kate1 on Mar 18, 2017 10:54:12 GMT -5
About DNA, I think I remember that after Cal's other families were discovered his US kids ask for the fragment of bones that were at the museum. Is this correct? Wonder if it's so DNA couldn't be used for any matching.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2017 17:42:33 GMT -5
Hi Kate1. So nice to see you back on the board. The family did request certain items from the New Jersey State Police archives in 2003. I also personally think that the family could have become concerned about possible future demands for DNA testing of some of the physical evidence and therefore requested those items be given to them. I am not really buying that this request was something that Anne Lindbergh wanted. She, herself, could have made that request at any time if she really wanted those items returned for whatever reason she would have given. Anne Lindbergh died in 2001.
Ronelle Delmont's Hoax board had the following posted on this topic:
"By order of the Attorney General's Office, the sleeping suit, thumb guard, and B. Altman t-shirt as well as the contents of the jars that were on display, and the hair and bone fragments were all returned to the Lindbergh family earlier this month.
The signed statement from the Lindberghs reads:
"The Lindbergh Family has honored the longtime wish of Anne Morrow Lindbergh that the remains and personal effects of Charles Lindbergh, Jr. be returned to the family for appropriate disposition. Today, Charles, Jr.'s siblings express their appreciation to the New Jersey Attorney General's Office and the New Jersey State Police Museum for returning these items and for enabling Mrs. Lindbergh's wishes to be fulfilled.
(sg) Land M. Lindbergh (sg) Reeve Lindbergh May 8, 2003"
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Post by hurtelable on Mar 18, 2017 17:57:14 GMT -5
About DNA, I think I remember that after Cal's other families were discovered his US kids ask for the fragment of bones that were at the museum. Is this correct? Wonder if it's so DNA couldn't be used for any matching. I think you are on to something there, katie1. CAL Sr.'s legacy had already been tarnished by the revelation that he had several out-of-wedlock children in Germany in the 1950s. IIRC, this was proven by DNA testing done in a German lab c. 2003, although I don't know how that lab might have obtained a known Lindbergh family specimen to use for comparison purposes. You have to think it was more than ironic that about the same time the revelation of the German children came out, the Lindbergh descendants asked the NJSP to transfer over to them items from the body found in the woods in the LKC. What motivated their desire to obtain custody of these items might have been the possibility DNA testing on the body and its parts and associated items of clothing might reveal that the body found in the woods was NOT CAL Jr. Such a finding would expand discussion of the LKC case in directions which would further damage CAL Sr.'s legacy. But by giving the purported body parts of CAL Jr. and other evidence to the Lindbergh family in 2003, the possibility of any any such finding was effectively eliminated.
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Post by kate1 on Mar 18, 2017 19:26:51 GMT -5
Thank you both. I didn't know the family made the request before the other families were discovered. I think I read somewhere that one of CA L's grandsons thought the faces of the German children were so familiar and it was his DNA that was used. Not too sure about that but I think it was the Lindbergh family.
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Post by hurtelable on Mar 18, 2017 20:01:21 GMT -5
Very interesting! Just about all of those items could theoretically yield DNA for laboratory testing. (Don't know the contents of the jars that were on display, so can't comment on whether the same applies to those items.) This further supports the idea that the Lindbergh family was attempting to thwart any possibility of DNA testing. Why? Fear that DNA testing results might yield the conclusion that the baby wasn't Charlie at all?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2017 9:35:42 GMT -5
Thank you both. I didn't know the family made the request before the other families were discovered. I think I read somewhere that one of CA L's grandsons thought the faces of the German children were so familiar and it was his DNA that was used. Not too sure about that but I think it was the Lindbergh family. The Lindbergh siblings request for the forensic remains and evidence items of their brother was made before the story broke about the German children. In August of 2003, Dyrk, Astrid, and David Hesshaimer held an international press conference in Munich, Germany and announced that they were the offspring of Charles Augustus Lindbergh and had the love letters written by "C" to their mother which backed up their claim. A DNA test was done about a year later with the cooperation of one of the American Lindbergh grandchildren and it proved conclusively that Lindbergh had fathered these German children.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2017 10:02:37 GMT -5
Very interesting! Just about all of those items could theoretically yield DNA for laboratory testing. (Don't know the contents of the jars that were on display, so can't comment on whether the same applies to those items.) This further supports the idea that the Lindbergh family was attempting to thwart any possibility of DNA testing. Why? Fear that DNA testing results might yield the conclusion that the baby wasn't Charlie at all? The bone fragments and hair were kept in lab tubes and a jar. I am not a forensic pathologist so I am not certain what items might have been able to yield a DNA sample that would have been complete enough to draw conclusions from. Perhaps the left foot bones or the hand bones that were recovered at the scene would have been your best bet. Apparently scientists have recovered DNA from long dead animals that have been discovered, so I guess anything could have been possible with Charlie's bones. Of course, we will never know. If the American Lindberghs had heard anything through the grapevine (Rudolph Schroeck book on Lindbergh's Double Life was being worked on) that there might be siblings overseas, I can see them moving quickly to get the forensic evidence from New Jersey. A story like that breaking in the news would probably start a whole new round of people claiming to be related to the Lindberghs or even being Charlie. By giving over that evidence it helped the Lindberghs and the state of New Jersey avoid future demands for DNA testing of this particular evidence. Here is a link to a picture of the bone and hair fragments that went back to the Lindbergh family from New Jersey in 2003. This comes from Ronelle Delmont's Hoax site. www.lindberghkidnappinghoax.com/fragments.jpg
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Post by sweetwater on Mar 24, 2017 0:18:03 GMT -5
Very interesting! Just about all of those items could theoretically yield DNA for laboratory testing. (Don't know the contents of the jars that were on display, so can't comment on whether the same applies to those items.) This further supports the idea that the Lindbergh family was attempting to thwart any possibility of DNA testing. Why? Fear that DNA testing results might yield the conclusion that the baby wasn't Charlie at all? The bone fragments and hair were kept in lab tubes and a jar. I am not a forensic pathologist so I am not certain what items might have been able to yield a DNA sample that would have been complete enough to draw conclusions from. Perhaps the left foot bones or the hand bones that were recovered at the scene would have been your best bet. Apparently scientists have recovered DNA from long dead animals that have been discovered, so I guess anything could have been possible with Charlie's bones. Of course, we will never know. If the American Lindberghs had heard anything through the grapevine (Rudolph Schroeck book on Lindbergh's Double Life was being worked on) that there might be siblings overseas, I can see them moving quickly to get the forensic evidence from New Jersey. A story like that breaking in the news would probably start a whole new round of people claiming to be related to the Lindberghs or even being Charlie. By giving over that evidence it helped the Lindberghs and the state of New Jersey avoid future demands for DNA testing of this particular evidence. Here is a link to a picture of the bone and hair fragments that went back to the Lindbergh family from New Jersey in 2003. This comes from Ronelle Delmont's Hoax site. www.lindberghkidnappinghoax.com/fragments.jpgI think you give a good summary here, Amy, of what happened. I do imagine there was some "private approach" to Lindbergh's known family before the world began to get wind of the situation. In one of Reeve Lindbergh's books -- and I'm sorry but I don't remember just which one right now -- she writes of how aghast she was at learning about her father's double life and other children. I got the impression that she felt completely betrayed and that it rocked her world --as one might imagine it would. I agree with all of what you have said about possible reasons for removing the possible sources of DNA from the archives -- I also see support for the view, though, that even the (or some of the) Lindbergh children themselves may have questioned whether the child found was really Charlie -- and I have wondered if maybe they had testing performed, privately, themselves. With all that has been conjectured over the years, surely one of them must have had moments when he or she...wondered (and maybe more especially so, when the "other families" came to light). I also believe Anne may at times have wondered. I do think it is possible that Anne, too, may have expressed over the years a worry about those items being on display at the archives. Yes, she could have requested their removal herself -- but perhaps that just was not "her way". As much as I hate, for the sake of history and researchers, that the materials were removed, I confess I have thought it macabre for them to have been there in the first place, especially the bone fragments. How many murder victims can you think of whose partial remains (even tiny bits) are on public display?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2017 8:29:36 GMT -5
I think you give a good summary here, Amy, of what happened. I do imagine there was some "private approach" to Lindbergh's known family before the world began to get wind of the situation. Hi sweetwater! So glad to see you post again. You have been missed! I figure that through the publishing world the Lindbergh children might have received a heads up about a forthcoming book about their father and possible siblings in Germany. It might have put into motion the thoughts about DNA and those items at the archives. I have (and still do) wonder why the Lindbergh siblings were never told about Charlie. Jon grew up thinking he was the first born child. What a shock to learn Jon wasn't when a man appeared at the front door of the Lindbergh home saying he was their brother Charlie! Only then did they learn there was another child. Very little was explained however, and the subject was never to be brought up to their father! Do you have any thoughts about why they would have kept Charlie such a secret?? I see the possibility that you suggest about the questioning by some of the children as whether the true identity of those remains actually belonged to their brother. When you read through Anne's diaries you see that Charlie was never far from her consciousness. Even in Anne's last diary book, Against Wind & Tide,( published in 2012) put together by Reeve, there are glimpses of Charlie. I believe the same as you that Anne did harbor some doubts, at times, that the corpse found was really Charlie. I think, over time, it just became easier to accept that it must have been him and move on from there.
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Post by kate1 on Mar 24, 2017 19:08:21 GMT -5
Hope this is a good place for this. In my brief stint in the library I read a book called, "Before and After Zachariah". It was the story of a beautiful little boy who was severely mentally handicapped. This wasn't diagnosised until about the time he was two...docs kept telling the mom he was slow in meeting developmental milestones. The point being he looked completely normal and was quite beautiful. I have asked nurses and several pediatriicans what they thought of a 7 month pregnant woman flying across the entire country without adequate oxygen so much so she had to be carried from the plane and was hospitalized. Absolutely everyone said O2 would have been deprived to the baby. And the result of that? Mental Retardation and probable cerebral palsy. Charlie was beautiful but had trouble standing. Just don't think it was possible for this little guy to have escaped the effects of that horrible trip. Maybe the family and doctors were looking for reasons but this has to be seriously considered.
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Post by Michael on Mar 25, 2017 8:18:32 GMT -5
I have asked nurses and several pediatriicans what they thought of a 7 month pregnant woman flying across the entire country without adequate oxygen so much so she had to be carried from the plane and was hospitalized. Absolutely everyone said O2 would have been deprived to the baby. There's even more to this story... Lindbergh flew so fast his gauges broke. My guess is this situation affected them both as well. And if that wasn't enough, I've read a source concerning something going on with the exhaust - which was blowing into Anne's face and one of the motivating factors for her telling Lindbergh to land the plane. But we all know he refused to because that would have been a sign of "weakness."
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2017 14:20:26 GMT -5
Just don't think it was possible for this little guy to have escaped the effects of that horrible trip. Maybe the family and doctors were looking for reasons but this has to be seriously considered. A very interesting post! I also think that the high altitude flight could have harmed Charlie before birth. Besides the very serious issue of a lack of oxygen getting to Charlie, the fact that Lindbergh flew that plane at such a high altitude that the gauges broke, as Michael mentions, might also have damaged Charlie's eardrums. There were no pressure suits available at this time to help protect Anne or her unborn child. I agree that this flight needs to be considered when reviewing what health issues Charlie might have had.
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Post by sweetwater on Apr 1, 2017 23:28:14 GMT -5
You know, whether there is truth to the rumor that Charlie was somehow harmed by lack of oxygen on that flight, the reports that he was may have been as upsetting to CAL the Aviator/CAL the symbol of Aviation and its Glorious Future as whisperings of other (possibly genetic) health problems might have been to CAL the Eugenicist. The brew is potentially pretty thick.
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Post by rebekah on Sept 18, 2017 21:11:25 GMT -5
"We have a situation where more then one person is involved. If Ellis Parker was correct, and I believe he was, that accounts for one car leaving the scene at 8PM. If Lindbergh actually came home when he said he did then he cannot miss the car. If he did not then he's lying about when he came home - pick your poison. That scene itself was - in my opinion - staged." -- Michael
What if Lindbergh was RETURNING home when he blew the horn for Olly to open the garage doors? What if the sound of " a car on the gravel" was the exact time Charlie was being removed from the house? I agree with Ellis Parker, just as you do. I also believe that Lindbergh didn't want Parker anywhere near the case.
I'm on my third read of TDC and was taken aback by Schwarzkopf's announcement (via teletype) at 7:30 PM, while the autopsy was underway. He reported that the baby's skull "had a hole about the size of a quarter just above the forehead." Don't know how I missed that twice. This is the only time I've heard this. It isn't anywhere in the autopsy report. Have you ever seen this documented anywhere else, Michael?
Just as an aside, Olson looked A LOT like Lindbergh.
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Post by kate1 on Sept 19, 2017 11:44:40 GMT -5
Rebekah I think there are many instances where CAL didn't want involvement. He didn't want Parker or the FBI. He didn't want the serial numbers on the ransom money recorded. He wouldn't allow certain members of the press access to information he was distributing to others. He was going to wait to open the note from Cemetary John. It doesn't sound like he wanted any help at all!
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Post by ron on Oct 10, 2017 1:25:06 GMT -5
Michael, do you have any good evidence as to what happened to Charlie, considering you do not accept the corpus delicti?
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Post by Michael on Oct 10, 2017 7:07:52 GMT -5
Michael, do you have any good evidence as to what happened to Charlie, considering you do not accept the corpus delicti? Although I believe a solid strategy in court would have been for the Defense to challenge the body's identity - I do accept it. There's no doubt in my mind it was him. I don't say that to dissuade anyone from thinking otherwise but that's absolutely my position.
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Post by ron on Oct 11, 2017 1:20:33 GMT -5
I'm sorry. It's been a couple of years since I checked in. Seeing Hurtelable's comments unchallenged, I assumed you and he were of the same mind now on the corpse.
I'm guessing that you dismiss the 2003 illegal destruction of the hair and bone evidence as just normal SOP when important people want historic evidence destroyed. A lot has changed since March 1, 1932, when Lindbergh was allowed to direct the crime scene and the next day take control of the investigation along with Bill Donovan and Henry Breckenridge. The NJSP seems to have perpetuated an 85-year-old quid pro quo of mutual historical hygiene.
As J. Edgar used to say, "Never embarrass the bureau."
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Post by Michael on Oct 11, 2017 9:23:22 GMT -5
I'm sorry. It's been a couple of years since I checked in. Seeing Hurtelable's comments unchallenged, I assumed you and he were of the same mind now on the corpse. Right, that would be a mistake. I try not to comment on everything when my position is already known. I'm guessing that you dismiss the 2003 illegal destruction of the hair and bone evidence as just normal SOP when important people want historic evidence destroyed. Why would you guess about something like this? And honestly, jumping to conclusions about this evidence yourself doesn't mean everyone else holds the same view. Know what I mean? I do not believe this evidence should have been returned to the family. I do see their point that it may have been in poor taste to have it on display though. The second thing is we don't know what the family did with it. And finally, my position is this request had absolutely nothing to do with the idea the corpse wasn't CJr. A lot has changed since March 1, 1932, when Lindbergh was allowed to direct the crime scene and the next day take control of the investigation along with Bill Donovan and Henry Breckenridge. Bill Donovan did not take control of the investigation. Lindbergh controlled it all by himself. Breckenridge was a loyal friend but there was no power above Lindbergh in any way.
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Post by ron on Oct 11, 2017 16:52:19 GMT -5
The family could have requested it be taken off display and permanently stored in the safe where most of it was.
It does not matter what the family did with it. Once the custody was turned over the evidence, if not destroyed, was contaminated as evidence. The Lindberghs have been plagued by dozens of lost Charlies knocking on their doors for decades. With the prospect of a claim from a false heir, why not prove once and for all the identification of corpse while they were doing DNA tests for the German heirs?
Donovan and Breckinridge were elite attorneys representing the extremely powerful Morgan - Rockefeller interests. Donovan led a private foreign intelligence operation that would become the seed for the OSS that he would personally direct in WWII. They were backing Lindbergh as Dwight Morrow's heir of influence. They were there to intimidate Schwartzkopf into following Lindbergh's wishes. They had no other purpose.
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Post by Michael on Oct 11, 2017 18:12:22 GMT -5
The family could have requested it be taken off display and permanently stored in the safe where most of it was. Sure they could have, but what does it mean that they didn't? It does not matter what the family did with it. Once the custody was turned over the evidence, if not destroyed, was contaminated as evidence. The Lindberghs have been plagued by dozens of lost Charlies knocking on their doors for decades. With the prospect of a claim from a false heir, why not prove once and for all the identification of corpse while they were doing DNA tests for the German heirs? They have been plagued with false claims. To entertain them would be to invite and enable more people to do the same and it would never end. They are satisfied, as are most everyone else, that the corpse in question was CJr. HRO sent me pictures which he believed proved he was the child. Great guy but even though I could see why he thought what he did I know he wasn't him. Donovan and Breckinridge were elite attorneys representing the extremely powerful Morgan - Rockefeller interests. Donovan led a private foreign intelligence operation that would become the seed for the OSS that he would personally direct in WWII. They were backing Lindbergh as Dwight Morrow's heir of influence. They were there to intimidate Schwartzkopf into following Lindbergh's wishes. They had no other purpose. I know who both of these men were. Breckenridge was there and looked after his interests as both a friend and lawyer. Donovan had almost no role outside of an indirect one.
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