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Post by Michael on Apr 11, 2017 5:42:24 GMT -5
Michael, In Chapter 12, The Crime Scene, I was wondering when Colonel Schwarzkopf arrived at the Hopewell house. I don't see him mentioned anywhere, unless I missed it somehow. There were so many police there and arriving at different times. Who was actually in charge of the crime scene that night? You didn't miss it. I presented the "who-what-where-when" based on the Police Reports. I know that Fisher claims Schwarzkopf and Schoeffel came together but that's incorrect. Mark and I hashed this out years ago - and I do mean "years" so I've been searching for the source I have that I remember references where Schwarzkopf was at the time. But, as I recall, he didn't get there until sometime late morning on March 2nd. As to who was in charge, it's usually the ranking officer. Wolf was in charge until Schoeffel arrived. If you look at his report he claims that Schoeffel and Keaten took over once they got there. However, from what I see it does appear like Lamb is the real man in charge. But the reports all say Schoeffel, Lamb, Schoeffel, Lamb, etc, etc, etc. In fact, even when the Press was being asked to vacate it's Schoeffel behind it. Then suddenly Schwarzkopf's name appears and it's all him after that. It's been so long that I hesitate to say anything solid until I find that source. I've also emailed Mark hoping he'll recall what the source we found is.
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Post by kate1 on Apr 11, 2017 8:02:11 GMT -5
I can't add much to this discussion but wanted to say my dad's family has a long history in law enforcement (my great aunt Nellie rode in a car with John Dillenger) and my dad remembers people coming to their little rural Indiana town and discussing the kidnapping with my grandfather who was sheriff at the time. When I asked my dad years ago why Hauptmann would not confess he said he might have been protecting family. He was a prosecutor at the time and appreciated how criminals thought! That being said I don't think that sounds like the antisocial personality that some believe Hauptmann was.
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Post by Michael on Apr 11, 2017 19:55:16 GMT -5
Michael, In Chapter 12, The Crime Scene, I was wondering when Colonel Schwarzkopf arrived at the Hopewell house. I don't see him mentioned anywhere, unless I missed it somehow. There were so many police there and arriving at different times. Who was actually in charge of the crime scene that night? While I still haven't located the source I have in mind, in Leo Coakley's book, Jersey Troopers, on page 107 he says that " Schwarzkopf arrived on the scene during the night and conferred with Lindbergh and Breckinridge." His book is the Police version of events - so what we can glean from this is he didn't get there until after Breckinridge's arrival. The source I am remembering said where Schwarzkopf was at the time he learned of the crime and explains why it took him so long to arrive. I am pretty sure he was out with his wife at the time but I'd like to make absolutely sure by finding this source. Excepting my various copies of the Triangle, I am pretty much tapped out as far as where to look further so it might be one of those things I'll have to stumble upon later on down the road - but I know I have it for sure.
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Post by Wayne on Apr 11, 2017 20:41:44 GMT -5
Michael and Amy,
FYI -- I've double-checked all of the initial police statements (Williamson, Wolf, DeGaetano, Bornmann, and Kelly) and I would have sworn Schwarzkopf's arrival time at Highfields was among one of the reports, but surprisingly, it's not.
The arrival times of Keaten, Schoeffel, and Lamb are mentioned, but not Schwarzkopf's.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2017 10:06:30 GMT -5
While I still haven't located the source I have in mind, in Leo Coakley's book, Jersey Troopers, on page 107 he says that " Schwarzkopf arrived on the scene during the night and conferred with Lindbergh and Breckinridge." His book is the Police version of events - so what we can glean from this is he didn't get there until after Breckinridge's arrival. The source I am remembering said where Schwarzkopf was at the time he learned of the crime and explains why it took him so long to arrive. I am pretty sure he was out with his wife at the time but I'd like to make absolutely sure by finding this source. Excepting my various copies of the Triangle, I am pretty much tapped out as far as where to look further so it might be one of those things I'll have to stumble upon later on down the road - but I know I have it for sure. Thanks, Michael for all the searching you have done on this for me. The reason I asked about Schwarzkopf's arrival at Lindbergh's house, came after reading the first chapter of Walsh's November 1932 series of articles he did for the Jersey Journal. Walsh mentions that he was called to Gov. Moore's office the morning of March 2, 1932. Also there was Col. Schwarzkopf and Maj. Schoeffel plus other law enforcement people. After receiving instructions from Gov. Moore, they, including Walsh and Schwarzkopf proceeded to the Lindbergh house arriving there just before noon. This was the first time I saw a reference to Schwarzkopf at the Lindbergh house. He didn't appear in your chapter on the crime scene and Wayne also confirmed he wasn't mentioned in the reports for that night. The way my mind works, I started to wonder if this was the first time Schwarzkopf came to the Lindbergh crime scene. That is what prompted my question. Thanks for your response.
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Post by scathma on May 2, 2017 15:24:46 GMT -5
But Lindbergh needs degrees of separation and insulation from this staged kidnapping, so he gets in touch with a friend or associate of some sort (I don't know who this would be, but it makes sense that an organizer would be involved to shield Lindbergh and guide him on how to handle the police, etc.). This guy, whoever he was, hires a handful of unconnected men out of the Bronx--the nearest and largest urban center to Highfields. How about CAL goes to Breckenridge, who in turn involves Donovan for his underworld connections. Donovan brings in Noso. Noso drafts Fisch. Fisch gets a ladder from Hauptmann... and the rest (literally) is history?
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Post by hurtelable on May 2, 2017 16:42:03 GMT -5
Seems like you may be letting your chain of connections run a little wild. Connection between Donovan and Noso? I'm not convinced. The underworld connectiom that came in through Donovan (via Thayer) was Rosner. And Rosner was unable to link this to any underworld connections he himself had.
Also, I know of no connection between Nosovitsky and Fisch, other than both were born in Eastern Europe and both later developed German language skills.
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Post by scathma on May 2, 2017 17:54:50 GMT -5
I thought Noso and Donovan may have crossed paths in the world of espionage Nosovitsky links: Donovan, Hoover, Charles (via Sr.), and Fisch. Also the unknown Baker/Bacon (probably Noso). And very probale (unknown and lost) Junges (returned to Germany)? and that Noso and Fisch were also connected via the fur trade... Noso knew Morrow, was making inquiries about Condon (according to Dinny Doyle) and (according to Pat Doyle) had worked with Fisch in the fur industry. If he knew Fisch, he was only one step removed from Hauptmann.
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Post by lightningjew on May 2, 2017 18:53:23 GMT -5
Hey Scathma,
That makes a lot of sense. Breckenridge was, I believe, the first person who Lindbergh called when CAL Jr.'s disappearance was discovered--almost like it was signal or something, that everything went to plan. So I thought Breckenridge could indeed have been the kidnapping's organizer (he was actually my first candidate for this role). And Donovan and Noso were first mentioned in Behn's book (my first read on the case), so I thought maybe they could've been involved as well. But now, after some discussions with members of the board, I don't think so. It would be very out of Breckenridge's character to have participated in something like this; I think he worked better as a tool, his squeaky-clean image lending the whole thing another layer of unimpeachable respectability, filling the role of the stalwart best friend/confidant/adviser. Nosovitsky could've been involved, having come into and/or laundered some of the ransom money, but Donovan--I'm not seeing any evidence for that really. But all this being said, the conclusions you're drawing about them are still completely logical and, as I said, make a lot of sense.
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Post by john on May 6, 2017 4:23:04 GMT -5
I agree, LJ, re Breckridge and Donovan not having any involvement in the LKC aside from their knowing Lindy and having been enlisted to help him.
The Noso-Morrow connection. Could it be too good to be true? I mean, looks good on paper, feels intuitively right as to there being a motive, but where's the smoking gun? Where's any concrete evidence to link Noso to the crime or extortion?
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Post by lightningjew on May 6, 2017 14:18:43 GMT -5
The whole Noso connection does seem a bit of a stretch to me. Intuitively there's nothing wrong with looking at him, but, in the end, yeah, I'm just not seeing it. If he had a beef with Dwight Morrow Sr., why not extort one of his lesser known kids, rather than involve himself in the LKC by extorting his son-in-law?
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Post by hurtelable on May 7, 2017 9:25:08 GMT -5
The whole Noso connection does seem a bit of a stretch to me. Intuitively there's nothing wrong with looking at him, but, in the end, yeah, I'm just not seeing it. If he had a beef with Dwight Morrow Sr., why not extort one of his lesser known kids, rather than involve himself in the LKC by extorting his son-in-law? Once you see that Noso is almost surely "J. J. Faulkner," you have an immediate connection to the LKC: nearly $ 3,000 worth of ransom loot. Then you have (1) the "J. J. Faulkner" letter to Gov. Hoffman, (2) the letter signed "Jhon" to Dr. Hudson, (3) the fact that Noso knew Condon, (4) the fact that Condon stated on his lecture tour that Noso figured in to the case and noso subsequently sued Condon. And Noso was a very slick and individual with a criminal background who knew German and could read and write in German. Wonder whether Noso was "Cemetery John." That photo of him standing on a roof seemingly holding a spherical object in his hand suggests that he might have the thumb lesion that Condon mentioned in his description of Cemetery John.
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Post by john on May 18, 2017 14:22:16 GMT -5
I'm no Noso expert but hasn't Noso been ruled out as CJ due to his having been established as being elsewhere than in NYC? Maybe Canada, can't recall. A biography of the man would make for fascinating reading. Alas, there seems little reliable information on Noso, insufficient for a book length study of his life.
He had issues with Morrow but I believe he also had dealings with J. Edgar Hoover early on. I wonder: is it possible that Nosovitsky was somewhat passively a player in the LKC, had got wind of the kidnapping through underworld sources, liked what heard, saw an opportunity to get back at some people he'd had problems with in the past, make a few bucks on the side?
Mastermind? No. Player, yes. Noso was a true professional criminal with a very shady past. Men like Hauptmann and Fisch were, in relative terms, dabblers, amateurs by comparison. Noso could "show the way", as it were, without actually doing much. I can see him as simultaneously above it all,--with no concrete evidence to prove his involvement in the case--yet on other hand have his fingers in a few pies, complete with aliases, favored owed him by others, etc.
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Post by rebekah on Sept 7, 2017 10:01:39 GMT -5
In Dark Corners it mentions Wahgoosh is with Olly in the servants sitting room. Also known Betty was drawn to the Whately's bedroom to see a dress. Both these locations are probably farthest away from Jr's bedroom in the most or possibly the most strategic times of the kidnapping. Few make a big deal about it and maybe there isn't. How can we though give olly a pass on suspicion. if there is a cover up and a room wipe down when would Charles or Betty do this? All this while Olly pretty much has opportunity to free wheel to move around the house unaccounted for. I believe Charles was gone before Olly and Wahgoosh ever retired to the sitting room and Betty went to "look at the dress." I also believe it was Betty that wiped down the nursery. Too bad she did such a good job that night. She should have neglected the window and shutters and the places she and Anne admittedly touched. Not so bright, was she? Also, I don't believe, for one minute, that anyone entered or left that nursery through the window. I also don''t believe Olly was involved. Or Elsie. Or Anne.
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Post by julie0709 on Sept 7, 2017 13:45:28 GMT -5
I guess what got me thinking in this direction in the first place was the crime scene: You have footprints leading away from the house, with a chisel and ladder dropped along the way; you have a ransom note left on the windowsill, as opposed to just dropped in the crib, where it would've been more quickly seen. Why? I mean, why did the kidnappers seem to so eager to create this breadcrumb trail and telegraph exactly what happened? The whole crime scene seems to be screaming "WE CAME IN AND EXITED THROUGH THE WINDOW; WE HAD TO, BECAUSE THERE WAS NO ONE ON THE INSIDE TO HELP US". To me, that's phony--i.e., the scene was staged. The seeming eagerness to direct attention away from a potential insider tells me there was one. And who, on the inside, had the clout to pull something like this off and take control of the investigation? And who wound up doing just that? Now, why would this be; that is, what was the motive? Well, it might be an oversimplification to call Lindbergh a straight-up Nazi, but he certainly was a eugenicist, a social Darwinist--and there were rumors about the baby's health and no pictures of him--zero--for months before the kidnapping (even though Anne asked for this while she and Lindbergh were abroad in the Orient, so she could track his growth while they were apart). Now, don't get me wrong; I'm not trying to sell you anything at all. I'm just trying to explain my thinking on the case. Hi LJ, nice to see you posting again. I always enjoy reading your well thought out posts. Anyhow I agree with the event being staged and having "evidence" pointing away from what really happened. It appears to me the whole thing was staged, the nursery, the footprints, the ladder, the notes and the thumb guard being dropped on the driveway. The ransom notes look especially phoney given the pseudo German, misspellings, etc. The thumb guard is such a small object it could have easily been dropped by whoever wanted it found on the driveway, Lindbergh, Gow, Whately or whoever could have just palmed it and dropped it as they walked along or threw it out the car window on the way out. The whole episode is lies lies lies
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Post by julie0709 on Sept 7, 2017 13:59:21 GMT -5
No, something happened which is as yet unknown that the kidnapping was covering up for. Maybe Michael's Book Two will have something about it - the "deathbed confession" he's talked about. Lindbergh considered the German's air strength superior and admired their ability to militarize, but you couldn't call him a Nazi sympathizer other than that. He was anti-war. If the U.S. had listened to his father it wouldn't have gotten into The Great War and perhaps WW II as well. Everything can be negotiated. As far as WW II went, and Pearl Harbor, all the Japanese were trying to do was get their oil supply back which we had cut off. If we'd have bent a little it could have been avoided. Same with the U.S. Civil War. Extreme policies such as all of a sudden making something illegal, like slavery, creates hostilities. Slavery should have been grandfathered out and everybody could have been kept happy. Same with Japan's oil. If anyone's interested in a mystery find out why both of America's aircraft carriers weren't at Pearl Harbor when it was attacked, and did that make a difference to the Japanese - reason why it wqas attacked at that time? Hi Jack, Don't know how much Lindbergh was involved with his support of a superior race ideology. I have read the Lindbergh's sympathies were non-aggressive. He believed Britain and France were beyond help or at least too costly to help with American intervention. The Germans did have the capabilities of overtaking Europe with their building up of forces and technology. Lindbergh was used by the Germans and was mislead as to their air capabilities. He didn't help matters by making speeches in public about the administration or his America First buzz That attitude didn't work in 1914 and didn't work in 1941. It's just too bad that Lindbergh couldn't get past it.
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Post by lightningjew on Sept 7, 2017 23:52:10 GMT -5
Hey Julie. Yeah, I think you've hit the nail on the head: Lies, lies, lies. I also think you're right about the thumbguard. When they could've just mailed it (as with the sleeping suit), the kidnappers somehow sneaked back onto the Highfields grounds--past the police checkpoint in the abandoned house at the driveway entrance--to drop the thumbguard 100 ft. from the entrance, where it was found? Well, no, that doesn't make any sense, so those who are only interested in hearing that this was an a one-man/lone-wolf job then have to say that the thumbguard had been in the driveway all along, dropped there by the kidnapper on March 1--but that doesn't make any sense either, because, had that been the case, it would've been spotted much earlier than it was. Well, okay, a car dislodged the thumbguard from the gravel, where it had been embedded, or a bird found the thumbguard somewhere near the house, picked it up and dropped it in the driveway--oh, come ON. The thing did not look like it had been outside, exposed to the elements for a month. No, there's no realistic way that a kidnapper, an outsider, could have left the thumbguard where it was found. And if it wasn't an outsider, by definition then, it was an insider--dropping the thumbguard where it was found on their way out, as you say, to invent an urgent reason to pay the "ransom", on finally coming to the conclusion that there was no other option.
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