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Post by Michael on Nov 14, 2016 18:41:51 GMT -5
Did Hans Kloppenburg really think Hauptmann was innocent? Here's what he said during a PBS interview (1982): Could you have a better friend, you know? We were three months together 24 hours a day, and I never see anything wrong that he would do -- anything anywhere. (Phrase unintelligible) Never anything, you know; I mean, he was a nature friend.
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dave
Detective
Posts: 130
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Post by dave on Nov 15, 2016 14:24:09 GMT -5
I knew Hans Kloppenburg . (Got Christmas cards from him every year for the last 10 years of his life.)He never had any doubt about Hauptmann.
He told me when I visited him at his home in 1985: "Richard was innocent, innocent till I die." He always thought in Geman and sometimes his English reflect that.
What arer you implying ?
Here's a FLASH! I talked on the phone in 1983 to Betty Gow. She was living in Scottland. "Davy, she called me Davy, Hauptmann and Hauptmann alone kidnapped the baby. I even heard, she said, that Olly said before he died that I was involved. He was a fool. I had nothing to do with that child's death!"
I know there are many who think that Betty was involved, and thats ok, but the "deathbed" comment was known by me and I'm sure others for over 20 years before your book. I never thought it was a big deal. You did and I guess it's a good marketing tool to those who don't know. To me it's still a so what! ,
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Post by Michael on Nov 15, 2016 16:08:09 GMT -5
I knew Hans Kloppenburg . (Got Christmas cards from him every year for the last 10 years of his life.)He never had any doubt about Hauptmann. He told me when I visited him at his home in 1985: "Richard was innocent, innocent till I die." He always thought in Geman and sometimes his English reflect that. What are you implying ? Thanks for this. I knew you spoke with him so I expected he told you similar things. I'm not implying anything. I just thought it was interesting that people close to Hauptmann truly believed he was "absolute" innocent. Here's a FLASH! I talked on the phone in 1983 to Betty Gow. She was living in Scottland. "Davy, she called me Davy, Hauptmann and Hauptmann alone kidnapped the baby. I even heard, she said, that Olly said before he died that I was involved. He was a fool. I had nothing to do with that child's death!" I was pretty sure you knew about it. Coming from Betty though, I didn't expect that. I know there are many who think that Betty was involved, and thats ok, but the "deathbed" comment was known by me and I'm sure others for over 20 years before your book. I never thought it was a big deal. You did and I guess it's a good marketing tool to those who don't know. To me it's still a so what! Marketing? No, I just wanted to get as much of the new stuff I've learned out there once and for all. One doesn't have to believe Whateley but at least it can now be considered.
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dave
Detective
Posts: 130
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Post by dave on Nov 15, 2016 17:15:06 GMT -5
Two comments to consider:
1) Fisher to Bornmann : "Lew I know he's guilty, but I have to do everything I can for my client ."
2) Hauptmann to Bornmann: "If I confess can you guarantee that I won't burn?" Bornmann to Hauptmann: "I can't do that." Hauptmann to Bornmann: "Then I have nothing to say."
I think I know your take, but give it to me anyway.
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Post by Michael on Nov 15, 2016 17:37:31 GMT -5
Dave, You are going to love my next book. Try not to be surprised if you know a lot of what's in it, but to be sure, no one else will. You're the last of the Mohicans so whoever knew something 20 years ago ain't talking about it anymore. Stop holding out - I'd love to hear more secrets from Betty! Two comments to consider: 1. After Fisher became Hunterdon County Prosecutor he had Investigator Ray Bastedo run down all of the Lindbergh leads that he could. He believed Hauptmann was "involved" but absolutely not alone. 2. Hauptmann asked Agent Turrou about leniency too. Turrou told him he didn't have any power to give him any. Of course we both know about what happened later on (don't we?) but that never materialized.
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dave
Detective
Posts: 130
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Post by dave on Nov 15, 2016 18:43:08 GMT -5
Mike,
There's. A huge difference between what you do with the case and what I did with the case. You research it, and I tried to live in it. Short example. You know the company who made the nails used on Hauptmanns house in the Bronx. I was able to convince Hunterdon County to let me sleep overnight in Hauptmanns jail cell in Flemington. See the difference.
You used documents. (Nothing wrong with that!) about the people in the case. I knew the people, and there were many still above ground then.
Yep we see it differentl. You read about it and I lived it as much as I could. This may sound funny, the case back then had it's own smell and taste. You can't get that from documents, though I read many. Nothing wrong with documents. When I looked at the case I was only, when I stared, 45 years removed.
I know you have been looking at the jury of which I have a very good understanding. I think I know were you are going so I won't jump the book. I had a chance to become good friends with Ethel Stockton. I was living in Florida when I started looking at the case and she liived in Ocala which was a short drive. We talked about the case for hours. I would often take her to lunch. One day we decided to drive to Lake Weir, Florida, and we ended up gettig a private tour of the house where Ma Barker and her son Fred were shot and killed by the FBI. That was a neat day.
I also had several hours of phone conversations with Robert Cravatt. Everyone thought Ethel was the last juror alive, but everyone missed Cravatt!.
I had a blast, doing what I call living the case.
Have you seen Hauptmanns shoes at the Research Center? The day I saw them Col Pagano was with me. I said "They look like they would fit me." Pagano said "try them on." I did. Very stiff, very dry from years of storage, but they fit. I bet that will never happen to anyone again.
Keep going this case is a real trip!
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Post by Michael on Nov 16, 2016 17:12:24 GMT -5
Have you seen Hauptmanns shoes at the Research Center? The day I saw them Col Pagano was with me. I said "They look like they would fit me." Pagano said "try them on." I did. Very stiff, very dry from years of storage, but they fit. I bet that will never happen to anyone again. Keep going this case is a real trip! I've seen them. They're in a crate in the warehouse. Mark had them on a day I was there to see them - so I feel really lucky. Let me ask you this... From my research I know that Bornmann was writing a book with a "Researcher" and I am pretty certain that was you. If so, why wasn't it published and do you still have the manuscript?
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Post by bobbyk on Nov 26, 2016 3:41:57 GMT -5
Dave,
When did you last talk to Robert Cravett? Is he still alive? If not, when did he die?
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Post by john on Mar 20, 2018 20:56:06 GMT -5
I find that Hans Kloppenberg was one of the more credible among those who claimed Hauptmann's innocence. There was something sincere about him, unvarnished, without guile, or any that I could detect.
Also, I wonder how many people have been tried and convicted for an offense such as Hauptmann was, anywhere, in the annals of crime, who had so many friends and people close to him who claimed that he was innocent, not only due to the ambiguous circumstances and nature of the crime, but characterologically, as private people.
Yes, all kinds of people have committed major crimes, and we are all capable of murder, but is there an instance of a crime of the scale of the Lindbergh kidnapping, literally masterminded (is there a better word for this?) by a man such as Hauptmann; a crime on this scale committed by someone without prior experience at working ON this scale? In other words, a small timer who catapulted himself into the big leagues in one giant leap?
If Hauptmann was as guilty as David Wilentz claimed he got way out of his relatively minor league of small time break-ins and the like, and without arousing the suspicions of those closest to him. Nor is there to the best of my knowledge a record of Hauptmann having been engaged in criminal activity in the U.S. He may have come here illegally, yet his activity, his behavior in his adopted land shows no concrete evidence of any criminal conduct, right up until the summer of 1934.
Points such as I've just made need to be gone over, repeatedly, as in order to "exculpate" Hauptmann, or, at worse, connect him to the larger crime of the kidnapping of the Lindbergh baby something of the man himself has to be sighted in this case. A shadowy figure here and there who vaguely resembles Hauptmann isn't enough. Probably nearly half of the adult male population of south central Jersey of the time would likely have "qualified".
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Post by Michael on Mar 21, 2018 8:11:44 GMT -5
I received this email this morning asking that it be posted as a reply to John's post: When Maria Mueller was questioned by police, she allegedly said "bad company" was responsible for Hauptmann's arrest. Maria knew him well. If she did make that statement, what did she know?
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2018 20:23:44 GMT -5
I received this email this morning asking that it be posted as a reply to John's post: When Maria Mueller was questioned by police, she allegedly said "bad company" was responsible for Hauptmann's arrest. Maria knew him well. If she did make that statement, what did she know? By "bad company" could Maria Mueller have been alluding to Isidor Fisch? Hans and Maria knew him. Hans had expressed to Hauptmann his concern about doing business with Fisch urging Hauptmann to get something in writing. I believe that Hans told this to Foley when he was questioned in October of 1934. Sorry, I know the question was meant for John. I just wanted to throw in my two-cents.
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Post by john on Mar 22, 2018 13:22:27 GMT -5
Thanks, Michael and Amy. Fisch seems as likely a candidate for "bad company" that I can come up with off the top of my head. He was, it appears, known for that anyway, with his pie company and all that. Not a trustworthy character, to say the least. It's amazing that he had any friends at all in the German community of New York. Also suspicious regarding Fisch is the issue of who Cemetery John was. I find that one a stretch, what with Fisch's size having to have been a giveaway, plus his manner of speaking being somewhat "ethnic" even for a German, and this being something Condon, assuming that he was telling the absolute truth as he knew it, ought to have noticed. Five foot tall Isador Fisch passing himself off as a Scandinavian? Bloody unlikely, I'd say.
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Post by Andrea Mercer on Apr 29, 2022 0:10:21 GMT -5
My Grandfather Hans Kloppenburg, was with Richard and Anna when Fiisch was leaving to go to Germany and my Grandfather carried the box covered in brown paper and tied with string into Richard’s house. None of them knew what was in the box Fisch just told them it was important papers. Yes Richard was innocent!
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Post by Michael on Apr 29, 2022 10:54:40 GMT -5
My Grandfather Hans Kloppenburg, was with Richard and Anna when Fiisch was leaving to go to Germany and my Grandfather carried the box covered in brown paper and tied with string into Richard’s house. None of them knew what was in the box Fisch just told them it was important papers. Yes Richard was innocent! Thanks for posting Andrea. There can be no doubt your grandfather believed Hauptmann was innocent. I mentioned the dirty trick the prosecution pulled on him in an attempt to keep him from testifying (V2,Pages 506-7). Would love to hear more about what he told you if you feel like sharing.
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hiram
Detective
Posts: 124
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Post by hiram on May 2, 2022 16:16:16 GMT -5
Here's a photo of Hans Klappenburg and Anna Hauptmann as the collaborate in the defense of their husband and friend, now deceased for many years. Attachments:
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Post by Guest on May 5, 2022 20:18:41 GMT -5
Here's a photo of Hans Klappenburg and Anna Hauptmann as the collaborate in the defense of their husband and friend, now deceased for many years. Thank you for this beautiful photo, Hiram. Two old friends bonded by the love and friendship for the same man. He fooled them both, it seems.
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Joe
Lt. Colonel
Posts: 2,640
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Post by Joe on May 6, 2022 10:36:03 GMT -5
Here's a photo of Hans Klappenburg and Anna Hauptmann as the collaborate in the defense of their husband and friend, now deceased for many years. Thank you for this beautiful photo, Hiram. Two old friends bonded by the love and friendship for the same man. He fooled them both, it seems. Nice to see this and I wonder if they kept in touch throughout the years before the LKC resurfaced in the public eye. Perhaps Hauptmann was able to fool them both, but I'd find it a real stretch that over the years and especially with more contemporary scientific confirmation of the circumstantial physical evidence coming to light, that both of them did not at least consider the high probability of his guilt.
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Joe
Lt. Colonel
Posts: 2,640
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Post by Joe on May 6, 2022 18:32:33 GMT -5
Thanks, Joel Here's a newspaper account you might find interesting.<button disabled="" class="c-attachment-insert--linked o-btn--sm">Attachment Deleted</button><button disabled="" class="c-attachment-insert--linked o-btn--sm">Attachment Deleted</button> Hiram, there were many such moments for all of those innocents forcibly drawn into this crime by a mentally-ill carpenter from the Bronx that led up to this heartbreaking moment for Anna Hauptmann.. and that went well beyond it.
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Post by thestonesunturned on Nov 3, 2023 9:30:14 GMT -5
I knew Hans Kloppenburg . (Got Christmas cards from him every year for the last 10 years of his life.)He never had any doubt about Hauptmann. He told me when I visited him at his home in 1985: "Richard was innocent, innocent till I die." He always thought in Geman and sometimes his English reflect that. What arer you implying ? Here's a FLASH! I talked on the phone in 1983 to Betty Gow. She was living in Scottland. "Davy, she called me Davy, Hauptmann and Hauptmann alone kidnapped the baby. I even heard, she said, that Olly said before he died that I was involved. He was a fool. I had nothing to do with that child's death!" I know there are many who think that Betty was involved, and thats ok, but the "deathbed" comment was known by me and I'm sure others for over 20 years before your book. I never thought it was a big deal. You did and I guess it's a good marketing tool to those who don't know. To me it's still a so what! , Bull. (bleep).
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Post by stella7 on Nov 3, 2023 12:22:42 GMT -5
Umm, Stone, please have a little respect for the other members here. Dave is a long-time researcher of the case and doesn't deserve this kind of response.
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Post by thestonesunturned on Nov 3, 2023 12:42:12 GMT -5
Has anyone ever SEEN any of these "Christmas Cards?"
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Post by stella7 on Nov 3, 2023 12:52:48 GMT -5
Probably well before any of our time. Perhaps Michael could set the record straight as Dave was among those researchers he thanked when he wrote his books.
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Post by thestonesunturned on Nov 3, 2023 22:02:32 GMT -5
In other words, no. No one has seen these "Christmas Cards."
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Post by Michael on Nov 4, 2023 11:10:05 GMT -5
In other words, no. No one has seen these "Christmas Cards." Dave checks in now and then so perhaps the next time he does you could request to see one... Dave was one of the original researchers to go to the archives after Governor Byrne issued Executive Order No. 110 in 1981: dspace.njstatelib.org/handle/10929/50416 While I've spoken to him personally many times over the years, prior to that I had known who he was from personal research. He is not only cited in my book but Jim Fisher's as well. In fact, it was Dave who interviewed Bornmann during his own research, an interview that is available at the NJSP archives for anyone who would like to hear it. Back at that time, there was a lot of "angry" people because of certain publicity about the case... Over Scaduto's book, HRO's lawsuit, and eventually Anna Hauptmann's as well. I do know it was Dave who spent several months day after day with Trooper Plebani combing over the documents and, I believe, was prepared to write a book in response to it all. I'm not sure what happened, but it was Fisher who ultimately did what Dave originally proposed. Anyway, over the years, I've always been disappointed when certain books do not properly cite their sources. Also, being a part of the Message Board communities, certain authors were always challenged for various reasons concerning their sources. A&M, for example, were supposed to be "wrong" about the fact Lindbergh hid his child in the closet when he pretended he was kidnapped. The "slant" was that they merely relied on Hynd's magazine article which was supposed to be a "bad" source. Stuff like this is what drove me to do the in person research. I wanted to see if particular points of interest in every book were true or not. By doing so, I was able to (concerning this example) prove Lindbergh hid the baby in a closet on more than one occasion. I've also been able to prove to my satisfaction that Fisher was very wrong about certain "facts" he asserted were rock solid in his books. Ultimately, anyone and everyone including myself, can be challenged or questioned about whatever is asserted. Right? The first step is to ask oneself if that person in question was able to be in the position to develop the information. I can say beyond all doubt that Dave was. Another interesting example... Dave said he got permission sometime in the 80's go to Highfields overnight and stayed in the Nursery on March 1 in order to better understand the situation. I was just in High School at the time so of course I wasn't there with him. But do I believe he did this? Absolutely. Anyway, we all have different opinions about what happened. Those opinions are obviously debatable. I'd recommend that Dave's research and experiences should be taken into serious consideration. That doesn't mean I agree with all of his conclusions, just like he doesn't agree with mine, but we both would agree that between the two of us we covered a lot of ground.
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Post by thestonesunturned on Nov 4, 2023 19:41:47 GMT -5
Thanks. That's a very long excuse for a short list of actual Christmas cards.
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Post by Michael on Nov 6, 2023 18:02:18 GMT -5
Thanks. That's a very long excuse for a short list of actual Christmas cards. Well, it was definitely not an "excuse" of any kind, and if this was just about Christmas Cards then forgive me. I thought it was about a little more than that. And while I do understand the skepticism (I question everything myself), I believe any fair minded person should want as much information to draw from as possible. Right? So if it was about integrity, and not just holiday cards, then what I wrote probably wasn't long enough. But its the best I can offer anyway.
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Post by thestonesunturned on Nov 8, 2023 10:41:43 GMT -5
"Integrity" is not evidence. Be-LIEVE me.
IF it's true that, over the course of aaaaallllll those years, Herr Kloppenburg really was THAT obliging over the matter of the phony LKC, then that would be very interesting, indeed. But again, I need to see these Christmas cards before I believe it.
Uh, you know what Kloppenburg did for a hobby, right?
Thanks again. Your books are priceless. If you like this kind of thing, have you read Tom O'Neil's CHAOS? Just like "Zodiac," just like "Son of Sam," just like LKC, the actual case files, etc in the "Manson Family" false flag op tell a VERY different story from the myth that was fed to the public and jury. SIX defendants sentenced to death. And the actual evidence completely debunks Bugliosi's tabloid frame-up job.
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Post by trojanusc on Nov 8, 2023 12:39:52 GMT -5
"Integrity" is not evidence. Be-LIEVE me. IF it's true that, over the course of aaaaallllll those years, Herr Kloppenburg really was THAT obliging over the matter of the phony LKC, then that would be very interesting, indeed. But again, I need to see these Christmas cards before I believe it. Uh, you know what Kloppenburg did for a hobby, right? Thanks again. Your books are priceless. If you like this kind of thing, have you read Tom O'Neil's CHAOS? Just like "Zodiac," just like "Son of Sam," just like LKC, the actual case files, etc in the "Manson Family" false flag op tell a VERY different story from the myth that was fed to the public and jury. SIX defendants sentenced to death. And the actual evidence completely debunks Bugliosi's tabloid frame-up job. There are researchers here, Michael included, who have been researching this case for decades. I think it's a little rude to be so skeptical toward people who have been key researchers and very well respected in this case for many, many years. The earliest researchers here absolutely had personal relationships with some of the key players.
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Post by thestonesunturned on Nov 8, 2023 16:44:11 GMT -5
Recommendation letters = 2 Christmas cards = 0
That's too bad. They might have proven something.
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