|
Post by xjd on Oct 28, 2016 0:06:01 GMT -5
hello everyone, i'm rereading Michael's excellent book and just had a thought (actually had many thoughts! but here is the one really bugging me...) the "orange crate falling off a chair" sound that Lindy reported hearing, could that have been the ladder falling away from the house? could the kidnappers (if you believe there are some) have left the ladder against the house and the wind knocked it over? that might explain the delay if the crime was committed earlier but the noise wasn't heard until Lindy came home. i poked around this boards "Ladder" category, and read the entry by Kevkon where he made the point that even with all 3 parts of the ladder assembled one could not have unlocked the window, had it been locked. and one would expect the window to a nursery in March would be locked. lindberghkidnap.proboards.com/thread/123/out i'm explaining it badly, but now i'm more suspicious of Betty than ever. i think she handed the baby out the window to someone on the ladder. who that was, and why they did it, is something i'm still pondering.
|
|
|
Post by Michael on Oct 28, 2016 18:37:41 GMT -5
I like that you're thinking outside the box and it's good to see new ideas and suggestions....It's important for everyone to openly discuss this type of thing so I welcome any opinions that differ with my own. Here's my two cents and it's not meant to stifle or shut down the conversation:
The biggest problem we have, and I think I was able to clearly demonstrate it in my book, is that the guy who we should be relying on the most for information cannot be trusted to tell us what the true situation actually was. Everywhere there is agreement among everyone else he is saying something completely different.
In my mind, the ladder had to have been carried away from the house. If it fell over I do not believe it would have made a cracking box sound. In fact, I believe if that scenario were true it would have left some kind of impression in the mud. Although I tried to be as diplomatic as I could in Chapter 6, it's clear to me that whatever he told Williamson he heard doesn't even come close to matching the claim he made in his Official Statement. A sound chalked up to a windy night morphs into a very specific sound coming from a particular place. Was the wind blowing in the kitchen? So for me, these are two different events.
The problem, and again I think I've demonstrated this in my book here too, was that Police dare not challenge things that were suspicious or inconsistent when coming from Lindbergh or even from someone else if it would in any way be perceived as challenging him. If it were anyone else they would have been all over it. However, as a result of these restrictions, there were only certain conclusions they were allowed to draw publicly.
As to your observation concerning Betty: It doesn't look good for her does it?
|
|
|
Post by scathma on May 4, 2017 10:50:33 GMT -5
Given the trouble they where having with the front door and it's weather-stripping, any speculation that it could have been the front door inadvertently slamming shut in the wind - as a participant was leaving the house? Had CAL been in the house enough to know what a slamming front door sounded like from within the living room versus orange crates in the kitchen? One would think Anne would also have heard it too... and Wahgoosh. Seems like the front door and kitchen are in the same general direction from the living room.
Of course, this would only be relevant if one believes that there actually was such a noise to be heard and that CAL didn't make it up in support of a bogus kidnap timeline of his own creation...
Speaking of Wahgoosh, why wouldn't the "orange crate" sound have triggered the dog to bark? That is just the kind of unexpected noise that usually sets a dog off. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
|
|
|
Post by Miss dockendorf on May 5, 2017 16:13:28 GMT -5
Or... there was never an orange crate sound and that's part of the story Lindbergh was telling. I agree that the dogs would have barked. After reading Michael's excellent book there is very little Lindbergh said that I believe. I agree completely that the bogus kidnap timeline is a strong possibility.
|
|
|
Post by scathma on May 5, 2017 18:17:42 GMT -5
Michael's book is on the way so I feel like I should wait until I read it before I post uninformed comments already covered in it...
Gardner's book is also in the mail, so I'm really looking forward to both of these sources and all their research
|
|
|
Post by kevinroddy on Jun 1, 2017 9:55:55 GMT -5
Several years ago, I visited the State Police Museum in West Trenton, NJ, with my son and his then-eighth grade teacher. When I saw the ladder in the display case, I perceived how narrow the rungs are, especially in the second and third sections. It seemed to me that when a man ascended that ladder and pushed off the ladder with his right foot - so that he could pivot into the window to his left - the ladder would have moved to the right and likely crashed to the ground, UNLESS someone was standing at the bottom of the ladder and holding it in place. We went home and tried an experiment, admittedly using an eight-foot metal ladder, and it reacted as I expected. (Fyi - I have an unusual perspective on this case - I am a trial lawyer and, for the past 12 years, have practiced at David Wilentz's old law firm in Woodbridge, NJ. I have been interested in this case since I was 12 years old - 50 years ago - when the librarian in my home town of Birmingham, MI, gave me a book to read about the case - I think it was "Kidnap." I have read every book I can find on the case, and am currently reading "Dark Corners.")
|
|
|
Post by kevinroddy on Jun 1, 2017 9:59:04 GMT -5
I always surmised that the "orange crate" sound that Lindbergh reported hearing was the sound of the ladder cracking/breaking as the kidnapper descended the ladder while holding the baby/toddler in a sack tied around his neck. If memory serves, he testified that he thought that sound came from the kitchen but that could have been the wind playing games with his hearing....
|
|
|
Post by Michael on Jun 1, 2017 11:38:34 GMT -5
Several years ago, I visited the State Police Museum in West Trenton, NJ, with my son and his then-eighth grade teacher. When I saw the ladder in the display case, I perceived how narrow the rungs are, especially in the second and third sections. It seemed to me that when a man ascended that ladder and pushed off the ladder with his right foot - so that he could pivot into the window to his left - the ladder would have moved to the right and likely crashed to the ground, UNLESS someone was standing at the bottom of the ladder and holding it in place. We went home and tried an experiment, admittedly using an eight-foot metal ladder, and it reacted as I expected. (Fyi - I have an unusual perspective on this case - I am a trial lawyer and, for the past 12 years, have practiced at David Wilentz's old law firm in Woodbridge, NJ. I have been interested in this case since I was 12 years old - 50 years ago - when the librarian in my home town of Birmingham, MI, gave me a book to read about the case - I think it was "Kidnap." I have read every book I can find on the case, and am currently reading "Dark Corners.") Thanks for posting Kevin! For their show, Nova conducted an experiment with a ladder representing two sections at Highfields. They used a fireman with a safety rope but he was able to do it without falling or pushing the ladder off of the wall. I always surmised that the "orange crate" sound that Lindbergh reported hearing was the sound of the ladder cracking/breaking as the kidnapper descended the ladder while holding the baby/toddler in a sack tied around his neck. If memory serves, he testified that he thought that sound came from the kitchen but that could have been the wind playing games with his hearing.... A sack tied around his neck is a new theory for me - I don't ever remember hearing about that idea before. During Nova's experiment, the climber was forced for put the bag in his teeth in order to safely get out. If anyone believes it was Hauptmann that strategy wouldn't have been possible for him.
|
|
Joe
Lt. Colonel
Posts: 2,640
|
Post by Joe on Jun 1, 2017 12:04:35 GMT -5
When considering the layout of the house, and the nature of the sound, it doesn't surprise me that Lindbergh perceived it to have originated in the kitchen. This due to the fact that much of the sound (vibrations through the air) would have come through the opening in the north-east corner of the living room. And the distance between the point at which the ladder might have made that sound and where the Lindberghs were seated in the living room, would have been about the same in linear feet, as compared to the kitchen being the source.
|
|
Joe
Lt. Colonel
Posts: 2,640
|
Post by Joe on Jun 1, 2017 12:08:18 GMT -5
Kevin, have you considered that the child in a bag was lowered from the window by rope to the ground or an accomplice? Allen, a fellow researcher has previously suggested this possibility on his site and it has always made a lot of sense to me.
|
|
jack7
Major
Der Führer
Posts: 1,920
|
Post by jack7 on Oct 25, 2017 4:55:28 GMT -5
A simpler and perhaps more correct solution would be for the kidnapper to throw the child in a bag out the window after he'd been silenced by a blow to the head, then pick up the bag and scoot. The blow to the head (which did happen) puts Betty out of the picture because it more than likely happened in the nursery, when, as stated, Charlie was murdered to quiet him. Until then, the household instructions were to not disturb Jr. even if he was crying.
|
|
|
Post by Miss dockendorf on Oct 26, 2017 13:36:58 GMT -5
But if there was a blow to the head wouldn't there be a bloody mess in the crib?
|
|
|
Post by kate1 on Oct 26, 2017 19:22:39 GMT -5
But if there was a blow to the head wouldn't there be a bloody mess in the crib? Not necessarily Could have been a closed head injury but I think to strike a skull with any force that would be a risk. A kidnapper would want the impression the baby was being treated well. Didn't even bother to take a blanket.
|
|
|
Post by trojanusc on Oct 26, 2017 20:46:42 GMT -5
But if there was a blow to the head wouldn't there be a bloody mess in the crib? Not always. JonBenet, for example, was struck unconscious with a blunt object (flashlight probably) on the back of the skull rendering her unconscious and this internal bleeding would have killed her had there not been strangulation in the interim. Because the instrument that struck her wasn't sharp and had a smooth surface, the skin was never broken thus there was no blood anywhere. Same could have happened here. Interestingly, it was this head blow that has led many investigators to believe it was Burke, the younger brother, who committed the crime. Nearly all involved believed the strangulation to be the cause of death and nobody even knew about the skull fracture. It wasn't discovered until the autopsy and kept secret by law enforcement. Curiously, when being questioned about how his sister died, he reenacted a brutal head strike. Since the family didn't know about this and it wasn't released to the media, how could he have known? Just one of the many strange things in that case. There were some flaws in the CBS docuseries on the case but it got more right than it got wrong. This segment, which many claimed was in poor taste, replicates the head strike to exaction: www.youtube.com/watch?v=72p_NjCl4pE
|
|