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Post by elyssa on Apr 24, 2006 13:56:02 GMT -5
Does anyone have any information on a car wreck Anne Lindbergh had shortly before the kidnapping? When? Where? Who? How? And any other details?
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Post by rick for elyssa on Apr 24, 2006 15:00:05 GMT -5
Elyssa--I just posted this on Ritas board this morning:
II. Some where on this maze of posts you asked about the Car Crash involving Anne and Charlie. It is found on page 250 of Theon Wrights book...In Search of the Lindbergh Baby. Alfred Denzler claimed Anne had saved his life after he crashed near the Lindbergh estate? Denzler claimed he needed an operation to save his life. It occured several weeks before the kidnap and some inference was made that "Charlie was injured in the accident sustaining a skull fracture" and that possibly the Lindbergh car crashed into Denzler?? And...."the baby may have been taken to Hartford CT for surgery". Why noone knows but the report appears but once in the Hartford Daily News on 4 March 1932?
This is the only reference to this crash I can find so I hope Michael has a huge file on it under "C" as per usual. I did not check to see if the Hartford Daily News has Archives, but my qustion remains.....Why Connecticut again? do all boads lead to CT?
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Post by Michael on Apr 25, 2006 17:07:07 GMT -5
I know I read about this in one of the older books... Unfortunately some of those don't have indexes so its hard to locate the source. My friend Siglinde (and super Researcher) had mentioned it to me previously so I asked her the source she was relying on. She told me it was in an account titled "Mrs. Lindbergh Saved My Life."
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Post by rick for Sue C on Apr 25, 2006 21:14:13 GMT -5
Further on page 250: as it so happens the story was first investigated by HRO! "He located a Dr. Reginald J. Pierson in Jamesburg, NJ whose father was reported to have operated on Denzler, when Anne and another woman brought him into his office. In May 1976 Dr. Pierson said he had no personal knowledge of the accident reported in the HDNews. He had no knowleged of any billing or payments from the Lindberghs!!!""" the accident apparently happened a few weeks before the kidnap/ According to Olsons theory the babe could have been taken to Hartford for brain surgery!? Where he was snatched by the Capone Gang. thus, the snatch was contrived with the help of Betty, Ollie and Elsie?" Even Wright says this theory doesnt fit--but it could explain an injury to Charlie that went unreported to the media? HROs so-called Denzler Theory could help explain later inconsistancies in CALs testimony at the Trials.(all according to Wright in 1981) I can only add from first hand info that Robert Aldinger tried to convince me he too had a skull fracture? this is all that Wright could uncover. Has anything been added to this theory in 25 years? Wheres Sue Campbell to start searching?
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Post by Michael on Apr 30, 2006 9:33:02 GMT -5
Rick is correct and it looks like HRO is the only one that I can presently find that did look into it. If anyone has been following Rita and the person (indirectly) claiming to be Ben Altis on Allen's board then I would have to say he is quite wrong that HRO "doesn't know anything." HRO spent a lot of time and money investigating this case. While I admit it was done under the false pretense that he is CAL Jr. he did turn up some interesting material and was in close touch with many Principals and/or those with intimate knowledge of the case. Siglinde got back to me recently with the newspaper article. As she pointed out to me there doesn't appear to be any other newspaper articles about this. Here it is below: The Hartford Daily Times, Friday, March 4, 1932: Mrs. Lindbergh Saved His Life, Man Asserts Alfred Denzler, Die-Maker, Offers Aid in Search -- Seriously Hurt in Auto Spill. BY JACK CUDDY Hopewell, N. J., March 4. -- (UP) -- Alfred Denzler, 34, who says his life was saved by Anne Morrow Lindbergh when he lay bleeding and helpless after a motor accident, came forward to-day to offer his assistance to the bereaved mother in her hour of need. Denzler, a tool and die maker in the gas and electric meter factory in this little Jersey hamlet, walked into the hotel serving as press quarters to make known his offer. Dressed in a laboring man's clothing, the small, dark-haired, dark-skinned man of Swiss descent, his forehead and chin deeply scarred from the accident, told of the experience in which Mrs. Lindbergh was the good Samaritan. Shortly after the Lindberghs moved into their home here, Denzler was driving in the country in a heavy touring car. The automobile crashed through a bridge on the road between Hopewell and the Lindbergh estate. Denzler was thrown out and cut severely on the head and jaw. He received a concussion of the brain. The cut on his chin nearly severed an artery. He lay on the roadside, slowly bleeding to death. Mrs. Lindbergh and a woman Mrs. Lindbergh and a woman friend driving into Hopewell discovered the accident. They picked up Denzler and placed him in their car. Then they drove by a detour into town at full speed, to a Dr. Pierson who stitched the wounds.
Denzler remained out of work for a month, recovering from his injuries. The Lindberghs meantime paid all the bills and took care of his wife, Cary. The Denzlers are childless.
"Because of this," Denzler said, "because Mrs. Lindbergh saved my life, I am willing to do anything I can to help repay her by helping to get back her baby.
I have a little clue which I hope to give to police as soon as possible and it may be of some assistance. I can't tell you now what it is as that might spoil its usefulness.
Although I need the money, I am willing to take off as many days as necessary to help in the search. I'd do anything in the world to bring their baby back to the Lindberghs."
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rick62 twright trainee
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Post by rick62 twright trainee on Apr 30, 2006 17:01:50 GMT -5
thanx Michael--at least I got one thing right for a change?
What is your read that this story is in the Hartford CT Times? I dont get that? isnt that out of the Tri-State area? its hard to believe that noone else picked it up and reported the actual dates? As usual, we need to know who is the "other woman"?
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Post by Michael on May 1, 2006 8:41:26 GMT -5
This is a very good question Rick. According to Siglinde, in 1930 Denzler and his wife, Caroline, lived at 22 Model Ave. in Hopewell. We have been kicking this very question around ever since Elyssa posted her question. Obviously the source of the article is Denzler. We've wondered if it wasn't "kept quiet" possibly because Anne or her friend actually caused the accident. HRO was chasing the story because he believed Charles Jr. may have been with them and injured. Then again there's always that chance of someone simply trying to get their name in papers. No counter-claims and/or rebuttals - the story simply seems to fade away until resurrected by HRO..... Mark Falzini, NJSP Archivist, was kind enough to send along a photo of Denzler:
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Post by rick3 on May 1, 2006 13:34:22 GMT -5
Michael--too bad we dont have a contact person about 80 years olde in Hopewell to show this photo to? Darn.
My question is better than that: HRO could not have put this article in the Hartford Times in March 1932!
Why did Denzler put this article in a Connecticutt Paper and not any Hopewell, Princeton, Trenton paper...the local one?
Also, quite coincidentally the "date" of the accident is lacking. And why put into the body of the article that
"Densler and his wife were childless"? How does the subject of child fit here unless Charlie was in the car and Betty Gow was too? Or Miss Alva Root, Breckenridges step-daughter?
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Post by elyssa on May 3, 2006 12:03:48 GMT -5
I have a little clue which I hope to give to police as soon as possible and it may be of some assistance. I can't tell you now what it is as that might spoil its usefulness. Did this CLUE ever come out? Was he ever questioned by the police to see what he might know?
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Post by jilly on May 3, 2006 13:50:39 GMT -5
It seems odd that Anne was driving not the chauffer.
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Post by rickIII trooperII on May 4, 2006 3:30:45 GMT -5
Jilly, you raise a very interesting point. Even Betty Gow cant get from Engelwood to Highfields without Ellerson or Red. And there are only a few good candidates for the other woman...Gow/Alma Root/Elsie Whateley. I am sure betting on Charlie too.
Also, the middle-aged well-dressed woman with the expensive clothes that tries to drop a ransom note in Greenwich CT shortly after the ransom is paid in April 1932 IS "in a car driven by a chauffeur"! She grabs back the ransom note when the clerk recognizes it, jumpbs in the car are the chauffeur takes off. She is never found. How would a woman with a chauffeur know she is passing ransom notes???
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kathy for jilly and rick
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Post by kathy for jilly and rick on May 4, 2006 6:21:38 GMT -5
this was the supposed first note of the ransom that was passed, immediately after the pay-off and in Conn.
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Post by rick3 on May 4, 2006 10:43:50 GMT -5
Kathy YES thats right. The story in the NYTimes is dated 12 April but later on History is rewritten by Det Finn and Lyons to read the first bill is passed in the Bronx on 13 April...how handy? Apparently the newspaper is the only reports that cant be rewritten?
The headline reads: WOMAN WITH MONEY FLEES (4-12-32)
They even published the serial # of the bill KB 03387539A
"Before Mrs. De Conille could gather her wits the woman snatched back the bill and darted from the store. She jumped into a green sedan with a chauffeur at the wheel and sped off toward New Haven." This is not the action of an innocent bystander?
"Woman was white. Age 42. Five'6" tall. Good Looking. Dark complexion. wore string of green sivler beads, gray frlt hat, gray tweed coat and brown dress."
Could it be Evalyn Walsh McClean? Who else in the upper crusts of society would have a ransom bill?
Later on the NYTimes also reports that a women is detained for 3 hours in the Bronx as being the above woman:
"A woman was guestioned for several hours at the West 123rd Street staion here in the bleirf that it was she that tendered the bill in payment for the purchases in a Greenwich CT bakery on Monday nite" BUT finally she was released with apologies from the Police" NYTimes dated.....Wednesday April 13th 1932.
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Post by kathy for rick on May 4, 2006 15:09:23 GMT -5
wasn't it in new haven that the baby was supposed to have been hidden? I get those places mixed-up, I know JFC assured us that RED was innocent but where did his brother live?
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Post by rick3 on May 4, 2006 17:27:47 GMT -5
Hi Kathy....I wrote most of the cities down on one memo to try and keep the Connecticut Connections straight:
Stamford, Station E is where the sleeping suite is mailed from.
Norwalk--Fisch moves to rooming house on 4-3-32
New Haven--Edgar Cayce thinks that Charlie is here, held by Paul Magleo; BUT also Tony Meslo, 43 is arrested on 3-8-32!
North Hartford--Red's brother lives here
Greenwich--rich lady tries to pass Ransom Note in green sedan
North Haven, Maine--the island where Charlie spent his last summer with Red and Betty
Stratford--Condon gets a ticket in January 1935?
Bridgeport--Ernie and Mary Brinkert March 1st; Red drops off John Fernindo on way to Hartford March 2nd
Stonington--some friend or relative of Fisch lives here according to Joyce Milton
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Post by new haven on May 4, 2006 19:31:34 GMT -5
thanks rick, Conn does figure into this. did Lindberghs eventually live in Darrien, Conn.? Seems like a highly populated place for them. I didn't know Fisch had lived in Conn. Did he have a business there?
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Post by Michael on May 4, 2006 21:32:55 GMT -5
We have to remember the Chauffeurs weren't employed by the Lindberghs but assigned to Next Day Hill and paid by the Morrows. That's not to say that Whateley didn't drive Anne places but I don't find it odd that she would be out with a friend without a Driver.
Denzler was interviewed by Police and he admitted he had spoken with several Reporters but denied the statements attributed to him. The Police were more interested to know whether or not he could have perpetrated the crime and less interested as to the facts surrounding the accident. He provided an alibi for March 1st and combined with his "eccentricities" determined he didn't have anything to do with the crime.
Rick & Kathy.....
There is definitely a New England connection to this crime....
P.S.
I have added another search-able archive web-site for finding more historical articles on the case in the "Members Only" section. If you're a Member be sure to sign in and check it out. If not simply sign up to access this area.
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Post by rick3 for michael on Jul 14, 2006 13:41:46 GMT -5
Michael
"Norwalk, CONN Boarding House. Here Fisch Lived. A view of the boarding house in Norwalk, Conn., where Isidor Fisch, and a companion lived after the Lindbergh kidnaping. Mrs Daniel Hermann, the proprietor, was quoted by the South Norwalk Sentinel today, as having told investigators for Gov Hoffman that a man who 'looked very much like Dr Condon,' visited Fisch at the rooming house twice in 1932. She told the Sentinel that Fisch had offered to sell her 'gold backs' for sixty cents on the dollar. She did not see the money. (Credit Line Acme [Photo])."
Does this Fisch story qualify?
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Post by Michael on Jul 14, 2006 19:38:13 GMT -5
It's definitely a 'connection.' However, while some of what Mrs. Hermann said was verifiable - other portions could not be verified. Governor Hoffman sent investigators there who did a fair job in following this up. I am left hanging on a few points and wonder if there aren't some missing reports to be discovered "somewhere." Where is your quote on this subject from? Some of Hoffman's team revealed that according to Hermann the NJSP had come to interview her during Hauptmann's trial having heard somehow of her account of ransom money being sold. Here is an excerpt: During the Hauptmann trial two New Jersey Police Officers came to see me. I don't know who told them I knew anything about the case. I told them the same story I have told you and when I finished they showed me some pictures and said THIS IS THE MAN WHO OFFERED TO SELL YOU THE MONEY. I said, "those picture are not of Isadore Fisch, I think those pictures are Hauptmann, but he never spoke to me about money. They insisted that I must be mistaken that if anybody offered me money it was Hauptmann and not Fisch. When I would not identify the pictures they got very rough and said, "you are crazy, and the best thing you can do is to keep your mouth shut. If you keep quiet they cann't[sic] take you out of the State of Connecticut and make you talk, and if you talk the same thing might happen to you that happened to Mrs. Busch, who was a friend of Dr. Condon."
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Post by rick3 on Jul 15, 2006 5:13:01 GMT -5
Hi Michael...well I spotted this searching Lindykidnap. the post is from your best bud Allen? Glad you have confirming evidence--deepsixed as usual.
1. Well, instead of saying that Izzy had visits from BRH, its Jafsie Condon! This is very interesting. Remember that Carol found that reporter Egad tracked Condon to Conn. once too on a wild goose chase.
2. All roads lead to Connecticut? Red Johnson heads out there to visit his brother unexpectedly on 1 March 1932 and CJ/Fisch informs: Red and Betty are inosent! Is there such a thing as Reverse Red Herring?
3. Joyce Milton reported that Fisch had a brother in Connecticut as well but this has never been verified. This would have been pretty obvious when the Entire Fisch Family was wined and dine by the State of NJ in Atlantic City during the Trial?
4. Is the mystery woman(?) living with Fisch at the boarding house the same woman who accompanies BRH to Abe Samuelsohns shoppe on 20 Feb 1932. Stay tuned. It would have helped if Mrs. Hermann had provided a name!
5. And last, the first Gold Cert to turn up is in Greenwich CT at a bakery...but it is snatched back by a well dressed 42 year olde woman being driven in a GREEN sedan by a chauffeur just one week after the ransom payment by Jafsie! This woman was almost caught in NYC but proven inosent just like everyone one else?
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Post by Michael on Jul 15, 2006 7:32:26 GMT -5
I think its important that if you pull something from that site you give the Authors name who is providing that information.
Allen, for example, has been caught making things up, posting things that are supposed to be quotes out of context or never said, and/or coming from someone other then the person he is "quoting."
Now having said this, knowing this is Allen's source then I would have to say its either Jim Fisher or the Newspaper - it seems to be the latter. Its also my opinion that Allen didn't stop there and probably made some comment about Mrs. Hermann being "drunk" or "delusional" etc. as if he has researched all the facts concerning her account..... I would bet everything I own he hasn't and if he did (chuckle) he wouldn't understand it anyway.
1. I don't remember what Carol's post said but Condon did go to Becket and would lie on the stand concerning facts surrounding that trip. The problem with Mrs. Hermann's assertion that Condon was the man she saw is that I see no one else there making this identification. I would assume Condon, in 1933, would have been remembered by all.
2. It's a strange comment and again portrays CJ as being very conscientious. Does a murderer care about such things and if so - why? Why wouldn't you want the Police to follow the wrong guy and therefore the wrong path which leads away from you and your gang?
3. Give me the page on this Rick. I have never seen such information in the source material I would promise you it would have been.
4. Mystery woman? Please explain.
5. An interesting story but I don't know if it can ever be proven to be connected since the woman took the bill with her. Additionally, the connection with Condon you are making is based upon a green sedan.....not much at all.
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Post by rick3 on Jul 15, 2006 19:10:38 GMT -5
My bad... since it was a News Quote from an Ebay photo & I didnt want to raise your ire? (I know how sensitive you are) There is some amazing stories in Loss of Eden concerning BRh and Fisch and a Mass. convict name of J.R. Russel:
1. Joyce has BRH travelling all over the East Coast. To Spring Grove PA and Lakewood NJ? Wasnt Lakewood NJ the origin of the stolen Buick abandoned by Duane Charles Baker out in front of the JJ Faulkner Apartments in the Bronx on 1 March 32? Joyce is overly intrigued with Bacon/Baker. BRh and Anna even stopped in Flemington NJ to buy eggs in 1933! Such is Life?
2. BRH told Clyton Moul that he had a curly haired son in 1932 before Manfred was borne too/ page 314.
3. JR Russel told police that BRH tried to get him to shoot isador Fisch in Connecticut (p 316) but he said no? BRh said Fisch knew too mauch about him, AND that he had killed a child with a pistol? (p 317)
4. The FBi checked out the fact that Fisch had a brother living in Stonington CT! (page 318) via Russel.
5. BRH and CArl Henkel went hunting in Maine in 1932. page 319 so apparently BRH was driving up and down the East Coast all the time?
6. If Condon knows BRH and CJ/Fisch then they have no trouble meeting up in Connecticut or Boston or Maine? I think only the fancy woman dropping the Gold Note had a chauffered Green sedan, i dont know about Condons cars?
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Post by Michael on Jul 16, 2006 9:25:38 GMT -5
This is equal to a news report. Usually a news photo will have the date and description of the photo. I am sensitive towards what is considered absolute fact and what is shrugged off without proper investigation. Sometimes the papers were exactly right, however, sometimes they 'hyped' up an angle in order to sell papers. We have to remember the depression affected the papers too and they needed to sell them in order to survive. Additionally, I've done enough research on the case to know that Reporters sometimes were the basis for an investigation to be conducted - at times finding connections even the Police missed - so they would read an article and then assign its contents to Investigators. It's part of the history of this case that I don't want to dismiss or get lost, therefore, its important to know the source so that we may endeavor on an informed investigation of the facts. Sometimes my comments are confused and I don't ever want that to happen. I haven't seen anyone here - ever - make things up or misrepresent things in order to look right. Opinions should never be labeled facts and/or make an unbalanced approach to certain things in order to make them look more legit. A perfect example would be Reihl. As we see with Condon - he wasn't always truthful, yet, there are those Condon "fans" who would cast aspersions at Reihl because his neutral account at Woodlawn calls into question Condon's. Now with Condon's track-record who exactly would do that? Sure ask questions but don't say in one breath that Hauptmann was a "lone-wolfer" but in another that Condon was a Saint - then in yet another that Reihl was either intoxicated and/or a liar. Guesses....why not? Assertions....unbalanced and negligent (sigh). See my point young man? 1. Yes Lakewood was the scene of the stolen Buick which wound up very near the front of the Plymouth Apartments. Baker is a likely connection but nothing ever materialized to prove it. Joe has done a ton of research on Baker: lindberghkidnap.proboards56.com/index.cgi?action=viewprofile&user=joeAnd so has Robert Mills author of The Lindbergh Syndrome: www.wheatmark.com/merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=BS&Product_Code=1587364735&Category_Code=In Jackson Mills, very near Lakewood, was also the site of the farm of Hauptmann's friend, Lempke (Lempe) who he knew since 1930. At one time Lempke was Kloppenburg's room mate. He bought the farm in the summer of '32. Hauptmann visited Lempke there in '32 and in '33 he both helped build a chicken coup and loaned Lemke $100 mostly in $1's and $5's. Hauptmann and Diebig did work on a job in Lakewood for two months in either '24 or '25 ending around Christmas. 2. Suspicious account. If Moul had such a letter I can promise you the handwriting would have been looked at - if it matched we wouldn't all be scratching our heads about who Moul is. I don't outright dismiss anything but the FBI were pretty thorough in their investigations. The FBI shared all of this with the NJSP, there isn't anything that I have seen yet with his name attached to it. Even if the NJSP "blew it off" and since it involved Hauptmann I don't think they would, I know Gov. Hoffman would have looked into it. But here too there is nothing in his files I have ever seen. 3. I consider this bogus - but that's me. None of it checks out. 4. This is an obvious reference to Erich Schaefer. He was Fisch's friend (not brother) since about 1927 and were partners in the Solux Manufacturing Company. I believe Fisch gave Schaefer's wife an expensive fur coat at one time. 5. They did. I don't believe this is indicative of his "driving up and down the East Coast all the time" though. 6. Condon didn't drive and relied on others to tote him around.
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Post by Michael on Jul 17, 2006 15:40:22 GMT -5
BTW,
If anyone is interested in either the Russel and/or the Moul reports let me know. I will probably put them in the Members section for download and review.
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Post by mjrichmond on Jul 18, 2006 8:29:02 GMT -5
<<<Does anyone have any information on a car wreck Anne Lindbergh had shortly before the kidnapping? When? Where? Who? How? And any other details?>>>
In Anne's letter to her mother in January, 1932 (Hour of Gold, Hour of Lead pg. 226) she mentions getting into a car accident "the other day". She says that they were rear-ended, the accident resulted in damage to their car (smashed taillight, mudguard and a leak in the gas tank). She says the Charles got out to talk to the other driver. It happened in NYC when they were on their way to Princeton. This may be the accident about which you are asking. My guess is that Charles, not Anne, was driving.
Mjr
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Post by rick3 skeptic5 on Jul 18, 2006 9:21:54 GMT -5
MJR.....the first string on Ronelles Hoax board has a long string on the Alfred Denzler car crash: disc.server.com/Indices/141545.htmlApparently, it happened near Highfields in early Feb 1932?
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Post by mjrichmond on Jul 18, 2006 9:30:20 GMT -5
Rick -
<<<Apparently, it happened near Highfields in early Feb 1932?>>>
Must have been two accidents then, because Anne's letter is from January, 1932 and clearly says that the accident took place in NYC. If there was another, please let me know.
Mjr
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Post by rick3 skeptic5 on Jul 18, 2006 14:51:03 GMT -5
MJR....well heres Sues post on Ronells board:
I
this is the Alfred Denzler crash? Yours may be a different one/ it could be important if Charlie got hurt? Makes sense in a ways, because in the Denzler crash Anne was with a woman?
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Post by rick3 skeptic6 on Jul 18, 2006 14:55:45 GMT -5
OK Michael, I will bite onto your post: So, who is Mrs Busch, and what bad luck befell her???
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Post by bobbyk on Jul 18, 2006 16:26:52 GMT -5
Michael:
I'm interested in the Moul report. I live only 12 miles from Spring Grove, PA, which is just starting to change with an increase in housing developments in the last couple of years. Overall, it is still pretty rural, much as it was in the 1930s.
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